CONTENTS OF VOLUME V.

SIX INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE.

(1882.)

Preface—First Interview: Great Men as Witnesses
to the Truth of the Gospel—No man should quote
the Words of Another unless he is willing to
Accept all the Opinions of that Man—Reasons of
more Weight than Reputations—Would a general
Acceptance of Unbelief fill the Penitentiaries?—
My Creed—Most Criminals Orthodox—Relig-ion and
Morality not Necessarily Associates—On the
Creation of the Universe out of Omnipotence—Mr.
Talmage's Theory about the Pro-duction of Light
prior to the Creation of the Sun—The Deluge and
the Ark—Mr. Talmage's tendency to Belittle the
Bible Miracles—His Chemical, Geological, and
Agricultural Views—His Disregard of Good Manners-
-Second Interview: An Insulting Text—God's Design
in Creating Guiteau to be the Assassin of
Garfield—Mr. Talmage brings the Charge of
Blasphemy—Some Real Blasphemers—The Tabernacle
Pastor tells the exact Opposite of the Truth about
Col. Ingersoll's Attitude toward the Circulation
of Immoral Books—"Assassinating" God—Mr.
Talmage finds Nearly All the Invention of Modern
Times Mentioned in the Bible—The Reverend
Gentleman corrects the Translators of the Bible in
the Matter of the Rib Story—Denies that Polygamy
is permitted by the Old Testament—His De-fence of
Queen Victoria and Violation of the Grave of
George Eliot—Exhibits a Christian Spirit—Third
Interview: Mr. Talmage's Partiality in the
Bestowal of his Love—Denies the Right of Laymen
to Examine the Scriptures—Thinks the Infidels
Victims of Bibliophobia —He explains the Stopping
of the Sun and Moon at the Command of Joshua—
Instances a Dark Day in the Early Part of the
Century—Charges that Holy Things are Made Light
of—Reaffirms his Confidence in the Whale and
Jonah Story—The Commandment which Forbids the
making of Graven Images—Affirmation that the
Bible is the Friend of Woman—The Present
Condition of Woman—Fourth Interview: Colonel
Ingersoll Compared by Mr. Talmage tojehoiakim, who
Consigned Writings of Jeremiah to the Flames—An
Intimation that Infidels wish to have all copies
of the Bible Destroyed by Fire—Laughter
Deprecated—Col. Ingersoll Accused of Denouncing
his Father—Mr. Talmage holds that a Man may be
Perfectly Happy in Heaven with His Mother in Hell-
-Challenges the Infidel to Read a Chapter from St.
John—On the "Chief Solace of the World"—Dis-
covers an Attempt is being made to Put Out the
Light-houses of the Farther Shore—Affirms our
Debt to Christianity for Schools, Hospitals,
etc.—Denies that Infidels have ever Done any
Good—

Fifth Interview: Inquiries if Men gather Grapes of
Thorns, or Figs of Thistles, and is Answered in
the Negative—Resents the Charge that the Bible is
a Cruel Book—Demands to Know where the Cruelty of
the Bible Crops out in the Lives of Christians—
Col. Ingersoll Accused of saying that the Bible
is a Collection of Polluted Writings—Mr. Talmage
Asserts the Orchestral Harmony of the Scriptures
from Genesis to Revelation, and Repudiates the
Theory of Contradictions—His View of Mankind
Indicated in Quotations from his Confession of
Faith—He Insists that the Bible is Scientific—
Traces the New Testament to its Source with St.
John—Pledges his Word that no Man ever Died for a
Lie Cheerfully and Triumphantly—As to Prophecies
and Predictions—Alleged "Prophetic" Fate of the
Jewish People—Sixth Interview: Dr. Talmage takes
the Ground that the Unrivalled Circulation of the
Bible Proves that it is Inspired—Forgets' that a
Scientific Fact does not depend on the Vote of
Numbers—Names some Christian Millions—His
Arguments Characterized as the Poor-est, Weakest,
and Best Possible in Support of the Doctrine of
Inspira-tion—Will God, in Judging a Man, take
into Consideration the Cir-cumstances of that
Man's Life?—Satisfactory Reasons for Not Believ-
ing that the Bible is inspired.


THE TALMAGIAN CATECHISM.

The Pith and Marrow of what Mr. Talmage has been
Pleased to Say, set forth in the form of a Shorter
Catechism.


A VINDICATION OF THOMAS PAINE.

(1877.)

Letter to the New York Observer—An Offer to Pay
One Thousand Dollars in Gold for Proof that Thomas
Paine or Voltaire Died in Terror because of any
Religious Opinions Either had Expressed—
Proposition to Create a Tribunal to Hear the
Evidence—The Ob-server, after having Called upon
Col. Ingersoll to Deposit the Money, and
Characterized his Talk as "Infidel 'Buncombe,'"
Denies its Own Words, but attempts to Prove them—
Its Memory Refreshed by Col. Ingersoll and the
Slander Refuted—Proof that Paine did Not Recant -
-Testimony of Thomas Nixon, Daniel Pelton, Mr.
Jarvis, B. F. Has-kin, Dr. Manley, Amasa
Woodsworth, Gilbert Vale, Philip Graves, M. D.,
Willet Hicks, A. C. Hankinson, John Hogeboom, W.
J. Hilton, Tames Cheetham, Revs. Milledollar and
Cunningham, Mrs. Hedden, Andrew A. Dean, William
Carver,—The Statements of Mary Roscoe and Mary
Hindsdale Examined—William Cobbett's Account of a
Call upon Mary Hinsdale—Did Thomas Paine live the
Life of a Drunken Beast, and did he Die a Drunken,
Cowardly, and Beastly Death?—Grant Thorbum's
Charges Examined—Statement of the Rev. J. D.
Wickham, D.D., shown to be Utterly False—False
Witness of the Rev. Charles Hawley, D.D.—W. H.
Ladd, James Cheetham, and Mary Hinsdale—Paine's
Note to Cheetham—Mr-Staple, Mr. Purdy, Col. John
Fellows, James Wilburn, Walter Morton, Clio
Rickman, Judge Herttell, H. Margary, Elihu Palmer,
Mr.

XV

Lovett, all these Testified that Paine was a
Temperate Man—Washington's Letter to Paine—
Thomas Jefferson's—Adams and Washing-ton on
"Common Sense"—-James Monroe's Tribute—
Quotations from Paine—Paine's Estate and His
Will—The Observer's Second Attack (p. 492):
Statements of Elkana Watson, William Carver, Rev.
E. F. Hatfield, D.D., James Cheetham, Dr. J. W.
Francis, Dr. Manley, Bishop Fenwick—Ingersoll's
Second Reply (p. 516): Testimony Garbled by the
Editor of the Observer—Mary Roscoeand Mary Hins-
dale the Same Person—Her Reputation for Veracity-
-Letter from Rev. A. W. Cornell—Grant Thorburn
Exposed by James Parton—The Observer's Admission
that Paine did not Recant—Affidavit of

William B. Barnes.




PREFACE

SEVERAL people, having read the sermons of
Mr. Talmage in which he reviews some of my
lectures, have advised me not to pay the slightest
attention to the Brooklyn divine. They think that
no new arguments have been brought forward, and
they have even gone so far as to say that some of
the best of the old ones have been left out.

After thinking the matter over, I became satisfied
that my friends were mistaken, that they had been car-
ried away by the general current of modern thought,
and were not in a frame of mind to feel the force
of the arguments of Mr. Talmage, or to clearly see
the candor that characterizes his utterances.

At the first reading, the logic of these sermons does
not impress you. The style is of a character calculated

VI

to throw the searcher after facts and arguments off
his guard. The imagination of the preacher is so
lurid; he is so free from the ordinary forms of ex-
pression; his statements are so much stranger than
truth, and his conclusions so utterly independent of
his premises, that the reader is too astonished to
be convinced. Not until I had read with great care
the six discourses delivered for my benefit had I any
clear and well-defined idea of the logical force of
Mr. Talmage. I had but little conception of his
candor, was almost totally ignorant of his power to
render the simple complex and the plain obscure by
the mutilation of metaphor and the incoherence
of inspired declamation. Neither did I know the
generous accuracy with which he states the position
of an opponent, and the fairness he exhibits in a
religious discussion.

He has without doubt studied the Bible as closely
and critically as he has the works of Buckle and
Darwin, and he seems to have paid as much attention
to scientific subjects as most theologians. His theory
of light and his views upon geology are strikingly
original, and his astronomical theories are certainly as
profound as practical. If his statements can be relied
upon, he has successfully refuted the teachings of

VII

Humboldt and Haeckel, and exploded the blunders of
Spencer and Tyndall. Besides all this, he has the
courage of his convictions—he does not quail before a
fact, and he does not strike his colors even to a dem-
onstration. He cares nothing for human experience.
He cannot be put down with statistics, nor driven
from his position by the certainties of science. He
cares neither for the persistence of force, nor the
indestructibility of matter.

He believes in the Bible, and he has the bravery
to defend his belief. In this, he proudly stands
almost alone. He knows that the salvation of the
world depends upon a belief in his creed. He
knows that what are called "the sciences" are of
no importance in the other world. He clearly sees
that it is better to live and die ignorant here, if you
can wear a crown of glory hereafter. He knows it
is useless to be perfectly familiar with all the sciences
in this world, and then in the next "lift up your eyes,
being in torment." He knows, too, that God will
not punish any man for denying a fact in science.
A man can deny the rotundity of the earth, the
attraction of gravitation, the form of the earths orbit,
or the nebular hypothesis, with perfect impunity.
He is not bound to be correct upon any philo-

VIII

sophical subject. He is at liberty to deny and ridi-
cule the rule of three, conic sections, and even the
multiplication table. God permits every human
being to be mistaken upon every subject but one.
No man can lose his soul by denying physical facts.
Jehovah does not take the slightest pride in his geology,

or in his astronomy, or in mathematics, or in
any school of philosophy—he is jealous only of his
reputation as the author of the Bible. You may deny
everything else in the universe except that book.
This being so, Mr. Talmage takes the safe side, and
insists that the Bible is inspired. He knows that at
the day of judgment, not a scientific question will be
asked. He knows that the Hæckels and Huxleys
will, on that terrible day, regret that they ever
learned to read. He knows that there is no "saving
grace" in any department of human knowledge; that
mathematics and all the exact sciences and all the
philosophies will be worse than useless. He knows
that inventors, discoverers, thinkers and investigators,
have no claim upon the mercy of Jehovah; that the
educated will envy the ignorant, and that the writers
and thinkers will curse their books.

He knows that man cannot be saved through
what he knows—but only by means of what he

IX

believes. Theology is not a science. If it were,
God would forgive his children for being mistaken
about it. If it could be proved like geology, or
astronomy, there would be no merit in believing it.
From a belief in the Bible, Mr. Talmage is not to be
driven by uninspired evidence. He knows that his
logic is liable to lead him astray, and that his reason
cannot be depended upon. He believes that scien-
tific men are no authority in matters concerning
which nothing can be known, and he does not wish
to put his soul in peril, by examining by the light of
reason, the evidences of the supernatural.

He is perfectly consistent with his creed. What
happens to us here is of no consequence compared
with eternal joy or pain. The ambitions, honors,
glories and triumphs of this world, compared with
eternal things, are less than naught.

Better a cross here and a crown there, than a feast
here and a fire there.

Lazarus was far more fortunate than Dives. The
purple and fine linen of this short life are as nothing
compared with the robes of the redeemed.

Mr. Talmage knows that philosophy is unsafe—
that the sciences are sirens luring souls to eternal
wreck. He knows that the deluded searchers after

X

facts are planting thorns in their own pillows—that
the geologists are digging pits for themselves, and
that the astronomers are robbing their souls of the
heaven they explore. He knows that thought, capa-
city, and intellectual courage are dangerous, and this
belief gives him a feeling of personal security.

The Bible is adapted to the world as it is. Most
people are ignorant, and but few have the capacity to
comprehend philosophical and scientific subjects, and
if salvation depended upon understanding even one
of the sciences, nearly everybody would be lost.
Mr. Talmage sees that it was exceedingly merciful in
God to base salvation on belief instead of on brain.
Millions can believe, while only a few can understand.
Even the effort to understand is a kind of treason
born of pride and ingratitude. This being so, it is far
safer, far better, to be credulous than critical. You are
offered an infinite reward for believing the Bible. If
you examine it you may find it impossible for you to
believe it. Consequently, examination is dangerous.
Mr. Talmage knows that it is not necessary to under-
stand the Bible in order to believe it. You must be-
lieve it first. Then, if on reading it you find anything
that appears false, absurd, or impossible, you may
be sure that it is only an appearance, and that the real

XI

fault is in yourself. It is certain that persons wholly
incapable of reasoning are absolutely safe, and that
to be born brainless is to be saved in advance.

Mr. Talmage takes the ground,—and certainly from
his point of view nothing can be more reasonable
—that thought should be avoided, after one has
"experienced religion" and has been the subject of
"regeneration." Every sinner should listen to ser-
mons, read religious books, and keep thinking, until
he becomes a Christian. Then he should stop. After
that, thinking is not the road to heaven. The real
point and the real difficulty is to stop thinking just at
the right time. Young Christians, who have no idea
of what they are doing, often go on thinking after
joining the church, and in this way heresy is born, and
heresy is often the father of infidelity. If Christians
would follow the advice and example of Mr. Talmage
all disagreements about doctrine would be avoided.
In this way the church could secure absolute in-
tellectual peace and all the disputes, heartburnings,
jealousies and hatreds born of thought, discussion
and reasoning, would be impossible.

In the estimation of Mr. Talmage, the man who
doubts and examines is not fit for the society of
angels. There are no disputes, no discussions in

XII

heaven. The angels do not think; they believe,
they enjoy. The highest form of religion is re-
pression. We should conquer the passions and
destroy desire. We should control the mind and
stop thinking. In this way we "offer ourselves a
"living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." When
desire dies, when thought ceases, we shall be pure.
—This is heaven.

Robert G. Ingersoll.

Washington, D. C,

April; 1882.




INGERSOLL'S INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE.


FIRST INTERVIEW.

Polonius. My lord, I will use them according to
their desert.

Hamlet. God's bodikins, man, much better: use
every man after his desert, and who should 'scape
whipping? Use them after your own honor and
dignity: the less they deserve, the more merit is
in your bounty.

Question. Have you read the sermon of

Mr. Talmage, in which he exposes your mis-
representations?

Answer. I have read such reports as appeared in
some of the New York papers.

Question. What do you think of what he has
to say?

Answer. Some time ago I gave it as my opinion
of Mr. Talmage that, while he was a man of most
excellent judgment, he was somewhat deficient in
imagination. I find that he has the disease that seems

16

to afflict most theologians, and that is, a kind of intel-
lectual toadyism, that uses the names of supposed great
men instead of arguments. It is perfectly astonishing
to the average preacher that any one should have the
temerity to differ, on the subject of theology, with
Andrew Jackson, Daniel Webster, and other gentlemen
eminent for piety during their lives, but who,
as a rule, expressed their theological opinions a few
minutes before dissolution. These ministers are per-
fectly delighted to have some great politician, some
judge, soldier, or president, certify to the truth of the
Bible and to the moral character of Jesus Christ.

Mr. Talmage insists that if a witness is false in one
particular, his entire testimony must be thrown away.
Daniel Webster was in favor of the Fugitive Slave
Law, and thought it the duty of the North to capture
the poor slave-mother. He was willing to stand
between a human being and his freedom. He was
willing to assist in compelling persons to work without
any pay except such marks of the lash as they might
receive. Yet this man is brought forward as a witness
for the truth of the gospel. If he was false in his
testimony as to liberty, what is his affidavit worth as
to the value of Christianity? Andrew Jackson was a
brave man, a good general, a patriot second to none,

17

an excellent judge of horses, and a brave duelist. I
admit that in his old age he relied considerably upon
the atonement. I think Jackson was really a very great
man, and probably no President impressed himself
more deeply upon the American people than the hero
of New Orleans, but as a theologian he was, in my
judgment, a most decided failure, and his opinion as
to the authenticity of the Scriptures is of no earthly
value. It was a subject upon which he knew probably
as little as Mr. Talmage does about modern infidelity.
Thousands of people will quote Jackson in favor of
religion, about which he knew nothing, and yet have
no confidence in his political opinions, although he
devoted the best part of his life to politics.

No man should quote the words of another, in place
of an argument, unless he is willing to accept all the
opinions of that man. Lord Bacon denied the Copernican

system of astronomy, and, according to Mr.
Talmage, having made that mistake, his opinions upon
other subjects are equally worthless. Mr. Wesley
believed in ghosts, witches, and personal devils, yet
upon many subjects I have no doubt his opinions were
correct. The truth is, that nearly everybody is right
about some things and wrong about most things; and
if a man's testimony is not to be taken until he is

18

right on every subject, witnesses will be extremely
scarce.

Personally, I care nothing about names. It makes
no difference to me what the supposed great men of
the past have said, except as what they have said
contains an argument; and that argument is worth to
me the force it naturally has upon my mind. Chris-
tians forget that in the realm of reason there are no
serfs and no monarchs. When you submit to an
argument, you do not submit to the man who made it.
Christianity demands a certain obedience, a certain
blind, unreasoning faith, and parades before the eyes
of the ignorant, with great pomp and pride, the names
of kings, soldiers, and statesmen who have admitted
the truth of the Bible. Mr. Talmage introduces as a
witness the Rev. Theodore Parker. This same The-
odore Parker denounced the Presbyterian creed as
the most infamous of all creeds, and said that the worst
heathen god, wearing a necklace of live snakes, was a
representation of mercy when compared with the God
of John Calvin. Now, if this witness is false in any
particular, of course he cannot be believed, according
to Mr. Talmage, upon any subject, and yet Mr.
Talmage introduces him upon the stand as a good
witness.

19

Although I care but little for names, still I will sug-
gest that, in all probability, Humboldt knew more upon
this subject than all the pastors in the world. I cer-
tainly would have as much confidence in the opinion
of Goethe as in that of William H. Seward; and as
between Seward and Lincoln, I should take Lincoln;
and when you come to Presidents, for my part, if I
were compelled to pin my faith on the sleeve of any-
body, I should take Jefferson's coat in preference to
Jackson's. I believe that Haeckel is, to say the least,
the equal of any theologian we have in this country,
and the late John W. Draper certainly knew as much
upon these great questions as the average parson. I
believe that Darwin has investigated some of these
things, that Tyndall and Huxley have turned their
minds somewhat in the same direction, that Helmholtz
has a few opinions, and that, in fact, thousands of able,
intelligent and honest men differ almost entirely with
Webster and Jackson.

So far as I am concerned, I think more of reasons
than of reputations, more of principles than of persons,
more of nature than of names, more of facts, than of
faiths.

It is the same with books as with persons. Proba-
bly there is not a book in the world entirely destitute

20

of truth, and not one entirely exempt from error.
The Bible is like other books. There are mistakes in
it, side by side with truths,—passages inculcating
murder, and others exalting mercy; laws devilish and
tyrannical, and others filled with wisdom and justice.
It is foolish to say that if you accept a part, you must
accept the whole. You must accept that which com-
mends itself to your heart and brain. There never was
a doctrine that a witness, or a book, should be thrown
entirely away, because false in one particular. If in
any particular the book, or the man, tells the truth, to
that extent the truth should be accepted.

Truth is made no worse by the one who tells it,
and a lie gets no real benefit from the reputation of its
author.

Question. What do you think of the statement
that a general belief in your teachings would fill all
the penitentiaries, and that in twenty years there
would be a hell in this world worse than the one
expected in the other?

Answer. My creed is this:

1. Happiness is the only good.

2. The way to be happy, is to make others happy.

21

Other things being equal, that man is happiest who is
nearest just—who is truthful, merciful and intelligent—
in other words, the one who lives in accordance with
the conditions of life.

3. The time to be happy is now, and the place to
be happy, is here.

4. Reason is the lamp of the mind—the only torch
of progress; and instead of blowing that out and de-
pending upon darkness and dogma, it is far better to
increase that sacred light.

5. Every man should be the intellectual proprietor
of himself, honest with himself, and intellectually
hospitable; and upon every brain reason should be
enthroned as king.

6. Every man must bear the consequences, at
least of his own actions. If he puts his hands in
the fire, his hands must smart, and not the hands of
another. In other words: each man must eat the
fruit of the tree he plants.

I can not conceive that the teaching of these doc-
trines would fill penitentiaries, or crowd the gallows.
The doctrine of forgiveness—the idea that somebody
else can suffer in place of the guilty—the notion that
just at the last the whole account can be settled—
these ideas, doctrines, and notions are calculated to fill

22

penitentiaries. Nothing breeds extravagance like the
credit system.

Most criminals of the present day are orthodox be-
lievers, and the gallows seems to be the last round of
the ladder reaching from earth to heaven. The Rev.
Dr. Sunderland, of this city, in his sermon on the assas-
sination of Garfield, takes the ground that God per-
mitted the murder for the purpose of opening the eyes
of the people to the evil effects of infidelity. Accord-
ing to this minister, God, in order to show his hatred
of infidelity, "inspired," or allowed, one Christian to
assassinate another.

Religion and morality do not necessarily go together.
Mr. Talmage will insist to-day that morality is not
sufficient to save any man from eternal punishment.
As a matter of fact, religion has often been the enemy
of morality. The moralist has been denounced by the
theologians. He sustains the same relation to Chris-
tianity that the moderate drinker does to the total-
abstinence society. The total-abstinence people say
that the example of the moderate drinker is far worse
upon the young than that of the drunkard—that the
drunkard is a warning, while the moderate drinker is
a perpetual temptation. So Christians say of moral-
ists. According to them, the moralist sets a worse

23

example than the criminal. The moralist not only in-
sists that a man can be a good citizen, a kind husband,
an affectionate father, without religion, but demon-
strates the truth of his doctrine by his own life;
whereas the criminal admits that in and of himself he
is nothing, and can do nothing, but that he needs
assistance from the church and its ministers.

The worst criminals of the modern world have been
Christians—I mean by that, believers in Christianity—
and the most monstrous crimes of the modern world
have been committed by the most zealous believers.
There is nothing in orthodox religion, apart from the
morality it teaches, to prevent the commission oF crime.
On the other hand, the perpetual proffer of forgiveness
is a direct premium upon what Christians are pleased
to call the commission of sin.

Christianity has produced no greater character than
Epictetus, no greater sovereign than Marcus Aurelius.
The wickedness of the past was a good deal like that
of the present. As a rule, kings have been wicked in
direct proportion to their power—their power having
been lessened, their crimes have decreased. As a
matter of fact, paganism, of itself, did not produce any
great men; neither has Christianity. Millions of in-
fluences determine individual character, and the re-

24

ligion of the country in which a man happens to be
born may determine many of his opinions, without
influencing, to any great extent, his real character.

There have been brave, honest, and intelligent men
in and out of every church.

Question. Mr. Talmage says that you insist that,
according to the Bible, the universe was made out of
nothing, and he denounces your statement as a gross
misrepresentation. What have you stated upon that
subject?

Answer. What I said was substantially this: "We
"are told in the first chapter of Genesis, that in the
"beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
"If this means anything, it means that God pro-
"duced—caused to exist, called into being—the
"heaven and the earth. It will not do to say that
"God formed the heaven and the earth of previously
"existing matter. Moses conveys, and intended to
"convey, the idea that the matter of which the
"universe is composed was created."

This has always been my position. I did not sup-
pose that nothing was used as the raw material; but

if the Mosaic account means anything, it means that
whereas there was nothing, God caused something to

25

exist—created what we know as matter. I can not
conceive of something being made, created, without
anything to make anything with. I have no more
confidence in fiat worlds than I have in fiat money.
Mr. Talmage tells us that God did not make the uni-
verse out of nothing, but out of "omnipotence."
Exactly how God changed "omnipotence" into matter
is not stated. If there was nothing in the universe,
omnipotence could do you no good. The weakest man
in the world can lift as much nothing as God.

Mr. Talmage seems to think that to create something
from nothing is simply a question of strength—that it
requires infinite muscle—that it is only a question of
biceps. Of course, omnipotence is an attribute, not an
entity, not a raw material; and the idea that something
can be made out of omnipotence—using that as the
raw material—is infinitely absurd. It would have
been equally logical to say that God made the universe
out of his omniscience, or his omnipresence, or his
unchangeableness, or out of his honesty, his holiness,
or his incapacity to do evil. I confess my utter in-
ability to understand, or even to suspect, what the
reverend gentleman means, when he says that God
created the universe out of his "omnipotence."

I admit that the Bible does not tell when God created

26

the universe. It is simply said that he did this "in the
beginning." We are left, however, to infer that "the
beginning" was Monday morning, and that on the
first Monday God created the matter in an exceedingly
chaotic state; that on Tuesday he made a firmament
to divide the waters from the waters; that on Wednes-
day he gathered the waters together in seas and
allowed the dry land to appear. We are also told that
on that day "the earth brought forth grass and herb
"yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding
"fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind." This
was before the creation of the sun, but Mr. Talmage
takes the ground that there are many other sources of
light; that "there may have been volcanoes in active
operation on other planets." I have my doubts,
however, about the light of volcanoes being sufficient
to produce or sustain vegetable life, and think it a
little doubtful about trees growing only by "volcanic
glare." Neither do I think one could depend upon
"three thousand miles of liquid granite" for the pro-
duction of grass and trees, nor upon "light that rocks
might emit in the process of crystallization." I doubt
whether trees would succeed simply with the assistance
of the "Aurora Borealis or the Aurora Australis."
There are other sources of light, not mentioned by

27

Mr. Talmage—lightning-bugs, phosphorescent beetles,
and fox-fire. I should think that it would be humili-
ating, in this age, for an orthodox preacher to insist
that vegetation could exist upon this planet without the
light of the sun—that trees could grow, blossom and
bear fruit, having no light but the flames of volcanoes,
or that emitted by liquid granite, or thrown off by the
crystallization of rocks.

There is another thing, also, that should not be for-
gotten, and that is, that there is an even balance for-
ever kept between the totals of animal and vegetable
life—that certain forms of animal life go with certain
forms of vegetable life. Mr. Haeckel has shown that
"in the first epoch, algæ and skull-less vertebrates
were found together; in the second, ferns and fishes;
in the third, pines and reptiles; in the fourth, foliaceous

forests and mammals." Vegetable and animal
life sustain a necessary relation; they exist together;
they act and interact, and each depends upon the other.
The real point of difference between Mr. Talmage and
myself is this: He says that God made the universe
out of his "omnipotence," and I say that, although I
know nothing whatever upon the subject, my opinion
is, that the universe has existed from eternity—that it
continually changes in form, but that it never was

28

created or called into being by any power. I think
that all that is, is all the God there is.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges you with having
misrepresented the Bible story of the deluge. Has he
correctly stated your position?

Answer. Mr. Talmage takes the ground that the
flood was only partial, and was, after all, not much of a
flood. The Bible tells us that God said he would
"destroy all flesh wherein is the breath of life from
"under heaven, and that everything that is in the
"earth shall die;" that God also said: "I will destroy
"man, whom I have created, from the face of the
"earth; both man and beast and the creeping thing
"and the fowls of the air, and every living substance
"that I have made will I destroy from off the face of
"the earth."

I did not suppose that there was any miracle in the
Bible larger than the credulity of Mr. Talmage. The
flood story, however, seems to be a little more than
he can bear. He is like the witness who stated that
he had read Gullivers Travels, the Stories of Mun-
chausen, and the Flying Wife, including Robinson
Crusoe, and believed them all; but that Wirt's Life of
Patrick Henry was a litde more than he could stand.

29

It is strange that a man who believes that God
created the universe out of "omnipotence" should
believe that he had not enough omnipotence left to
drown a world the size of this. Mr. Talmage seeks
to make the story of the flood reasonable. The
moment it is reasonable, it ceases to be miraculous.
Certainly God cannot afford to reward a man with
eternal joy for believing a reasonable story. Faith is
only necessary when the story is unreasonable, and if
the flood only gets small enough, I can believe it
myself. I ask for evidence, and Mr. Talmage seeks
to make the story so little that it can be believed
without evidence. He tells us that it was a kind of
"local option" flood—a little wet for that part of the
country.

Why was it necessary to save the birds? They
certainly could have gotten out of the way of a real
small flood. Of the birds, Noah took fourteen of each
species. He was commanded to take of the fowls of the
air by sevens—seven of each sex—and, as there are
at least 12,500 species, Noah collected an aviary of
about 175,000 birds, provided the flood was general.
If it was local, there are no means of determining the
number. But why, if the flood was local, should he
have taken any of the fowls of the air into his ark?

30

All they had to do was to fly away, or "roost high;"
and it would have been just as easy for God to have
implanted in them, for the moment, the instinct of
getting out of the way as the instinct of hunting the ark.
It would have been quite a saving of room and pro-
visions, and would have materially lessened the labor
and anxiety of Noah and his sons.

Besides, if it had been a partial flood, and great
enough to cover the highest mountains in that country,
the highest mountain being about seventeen thousand
feet, the flood would have been covered with a sheet
of ice several thousand feet in thickness. If a column
of water could have been thrown seventeen thousand
feet high and kept stationary, several thousand feet
of the upper end would have frozen. If, however,
the deluge was general, then the atmosphere would
have been forced out the same on all sides, and the
climate remained substantially normal.

Nothing can be more absurd than to attempt to
explain the flood by calling it partial.

Mr. Talmage also says that the window ran clear
round the ark, and that if I had only known as much
Hebrew as a man could put on his little finger, I
would have known that the window went clear round.
To this I reply that, if his position is correct, then the

31

original translators of King James' edition did not
know as much Hebrew as they could have put on
their little fingers; and yet I am obliged to believe
their translation or be eternally damned. If the
window went clear round, the inspired writer should
have said so, and the learned translators should have
given us the truth. No one pretends that there was
more than one door, and yet the same language is
used about the door, except this—that the exact size
of the window is given, and the only peculiarity men-
tioned as to the door is that it shut from the outside.
For any one to see that Mr. Talmage is wrong on the
window question, it is only necessary to read the story
of the deluge.

Mr. Talmage also endeavors to decrease the depth
of the flood. If the flood did not cover the highest
hills, many people might have been saved. He also
insists that all the water did not come from the rains,
but that "the fountains of the great deep were broken
"up." What are "the fountains of the great deep"?
How would their being "broken up" increase the
depth of the water? He seems to imagine that these
"fountains" were in some way imprisoned—anxious
to get to the surface, and that, at that time, an oppor-
tunity was given for water to run up hill, or in some

32

mysterious way to rise above its level. According to
the account, the ark was at the mercy of the waves for
at least seven months. If this flood was only partial,
it seems a little curious that the water did not seek its
level in less than seven months. With anything like
a fair chance, by that time most of it would have
found its way to the sea again.

There is in the literature of ignorance no more
perfectly absurd and cruel story than that of the
deluge.

I am very sorry that Mr. Talmage should disagree
with some of the great commentators. Dr. Scott
tells us that, in all probability, the angels assisted in
getting the animals into the ark. Dr. Henry insists
that the waters in the bowels of the earth, at God's
command, sprung up and flooded the earth. Dr.
Clark tells us that it would have been much easier
for God to have destroyed all the people and made
some new ones, but that he did not want to waste
anything. Dr. Henry also tells us that the lions, while
in the ark, ate straw like oxen. Nothing could be
more amusing than to see a few lions eating good,
dry straw. This commentator assures us that the
waters rose so high that the loftiest mountains were
overflowed fifteen cubits, so that salvation was not

33

hoped for from any hills or mountains. He tells us
that some of the people got on top of the ark, and
hoped to shift for themselves, but that, in all proba-
bility, they were washed off by the rain. When we
consider that the rain must have fallen at the rate of
about eight hundred feet a day, I am inclined to think
that they were washed off.

Mr. Talmage has clearly misrepresented the Bible.
He is not prepared to believe the story as it is told.
The seeds of infidelity seem to be germinating in his
mind. His position no doubt will be a great relief to
most of his hearers. After this, their credulity will
not be strained. They can say that there was probably
quite a storm, some rain, to an extent that rendered it
necessary for Noah and his family—his dogs, cats,
and chickens—to get in a boat. This would not be
unreasonable. The same thing happens almost every
year on the shores of great rivers, and consequently
the story of the flood is an exceedingly reasonable
one.

Mr. Talmage also endeavors to account for the
miraculous collection of the animals in the ark by
the universal instinct to get out of the rain. There
are at least two objections to this: 1. The animals
went into the ark before the rain commenced; 2. I

34

have never noticed any great desire on the part of
ducks, geese, and loons to get out of the water. Mr.
Talmage must have been misled by a line from an old
nursery book that says: "And the little fishes got
"under the bridge to keep out of the rain." He tells
us that Noah described what he saw. He is the first
theologian who claims that Genesis was written by
Noah, or that Noah wrote any account of the flood.
Most Christians insist that the account of the flood
was written by Moses, and that he was inspired to
write it. Of course, it will not do for me to say that
Mr. Talmage has misrepresented the facts.

Question. You are also charged with misrepresen-
tation in your statement as to where the ark at last
rested. It is claimed by Mr. Talmage that there is
nothing in the Bible to show that the ark rested on
the highest mountains.

Answer. Of course I have no knowledge as to
where the ark really came to anchor, but after it struck
bottom, we are told that a dove was sent out, and
that the dove found no place whereon to rest her
foot. If the ark touched ground in the low country,
surely the mountains were out of water, and an or-
dinary mountain furnishes, as a rule, space enough

35

for a dove's foot. We must infer that the ark rested
on the only land then above water, or near enough
above water to strike the keel of Noah's boat. Mount
Ararat is about seventeen thousand feet high; so I
take it that the top of that mountain was where Noah
ran aground—otherwise, the account means nothing.

Here Mr. Talmage again shows his tendency to
belittle the miracles of the Bible. I am astonished
that he should doubt the power of God to keep an
ark on a mountain seventeen thousand feet high.
He could have changed the climate for that occasion.
He could have made all the rocks and glaciers pro-
duce wheat and corn in abundance. Certainly God,
who could overwhelm a world with a flood, had the
power to change every law and fact in nature.

I am surprised that Mr. Talmage is not willing to
believe the story as it is told. What right has he to
question the statements of an inspired writer? Why
should he set up his judgment against the Websters
and Jacksons? Is it not infinitely impudent in him
to contrast his penny-dip with the sun of inspiration?
What right has he to any opinion upon the subject?
He must take the Bible as it reads. He should
remember that the greater the miracle the greater
should be his faith.

36

Question. You do not seem to have any great
opinion of the chemical, geological, and agricultural
views expressed by Mr. Talmage?

Answer. You must remember that Mr. Talmage
has a certain thing to defend. He takes the Bible as
actually true, and with the Bible as his standard, he
compares and measures all sciences. He does not
study geology to find whether the Mosaic account is
true, but he reads the Mosaic account for the purpose
of showing that geology can not be depended upon.
His idea that "one day is as a thousand years with
"God," and that therefore the "days" mentioned in the
Mosaic account are not days of twenty-four hours, but
long periods, is contradicted by the Bible itself. The
great reason given for keeping the Sabbath day is, that
"God rested on the seventh day and was refreshed."
Now, it does not say that he rested on the "seventh
"period," or the "seventh good—while," or the
"seventh long-time," but on the "seventh day." In
imitation of this example we are also to rest—not on
the seventh good-while, but on the seventh day.
Nothing delights the average minister more than to
find that a passage of Scripture is capable of several
interpretations. Nothing in the inspired book is so

37

dangerous as accuracy. If the holy writer uses
general terms, an ingenious theologian can harmonize
a seemingly preposterous statement with the most
obdurate fact. An "inspired" book should contain
neither statistics nor dates—as few names as possible,
and not one word about geology or astronomy. Mr.
Talmage is doing the best he can to uphold the fables
of the Jews. They are the foundation of his faith.
He believes in the water of the past and the fire of the
future—in the God of flood and flame—the eternal
torturer of his helpless children.

It is exceedingly unfortunate that Mr. Talmage does
not appreciate the importance of good manners, that
he does not rightly estimate the convincing power of
kindness and good nature. It is unfortunate that a
Christian, believing in universal forgiveness, should
exhibit so much of the spirit of detraction, that he
should run so easily and naturally into epithets, and
that he should mistake vituperation for logic. Thou-
sands of people, knowing but little of the mysteries of
Christianity—never having studied theology,—may
become prejudiced against the church, and doubt the
divine origin of a religion whose defenders seem to
rely, at least to a great degree, upon malignant per-
sonalities. Mr. Talmage should remember that in a

38

discussion of this kind, he is supposed to represent a
being of infinite wisdom and goodness. Surely, the
representative of the infinite can afford to be candid,
can afford to be kind. When he contemplates the
condition of a fellow-being destitute of religion, a
fellow-being now travelling the thorny path to eternal
fire, he should be filled with pity instead of hate.
Instead of deforming his mouth with scorn, his eyes
should be filled with tears. He should take into
consideration the vast difference between an infidel
and a minister of the gospel,—knowing, as he does,
that a crown of glory has been prepared for the
minister, and that flames are waiting for the soul
of the unbeliever. He should bear with philosophic
fortitude the apparent success of the skeptic, for a
few days in this brief life, since he knows that in a
little while the question will be eternally settled in
his favor, and that the humiliation of a day is as
nothing compared with the victory of eternity. In
this world, the skeptic appears to have the best
of the argument; logic seems to be on the side
of blasphemy; common sense apparently goes hand
in hand with infidelity, and the few things we are
absolutely certain of, seem inconsistent with the
Christian creeds.

39

This, however, as Mr. Talmage well knows, is but
apparent. God has arranged the world in this way
for the purpose of testing the Christian's faith.
Beyond all these facts, beyond logic, beyond reason,
Mr. Talmage, by the light of faith, clearly sees the
eternal truth. This clearness of vision should give
him the serenity of candor and the kindness born of
absolute knowledge. He, being a child of the light,
should not expect the perfect from the children of
darkness. He should not judge Humboldt and
Wesley by the same standard. He should remember
that Wesley was especially set apart and illuminated
by divine wisdom, while Humboldt was left to grope
in the shadows of nature. He should also remember
that ministers are not like other people. They have
been "called." They have been "chosen" by infinite
wisdom. They have been "set apart," and they
have bread to eat that we know not of. While
other people are forced to pursue the difficult paths
of investigation, they fly with the wings of faith.

Mr. Talmage is perfectly aware of the advantages
he enjoys, and yet he deems it dangerous to be fair.
This, in my judgment, is his mistake. If he cannot
easily point out the absurdities and contradictions in
infidel lectures, surely God would never have selected

40

him for that task. We cannot believe that imperfect
instruments would be chosen by infinite wisdom.
Certain lambs have been entrusted to the care of Mr.
Talmage, the shepherd. Certainly God would not
select a shepherd unable to cope with an average
wolf. Such a shepherd is only the appearance of
protection. When the wolf is not there, he is a
useless expense, and when the wolf comes, he goes.
I cannot believe that God would select a shepherd
of that kind. Neither can the shepherd justify his
selection by abusing the wolf when out of sight.
The fear ought to be on the other side. A divinely
appointed shepherd ought to be able to convince his
sheep that a wolf is a dangerous animal, and ought
to be able to give his reasons. It may be that the
shepherd has a certain interest in exaggerating the
cruelty and ferocity of the wolf, and even the number
of the wolves. Should it turn out that the wolves
exist only in the imagination of the shepherd, the
sheep might refuse to pay the salary of their pro-
tector. It will, however, be hard to calculate the
extent to which the sheep will lose confidence in a
shepherd who has not even the courage to state the
facts about the wolf. But what must be the result
when the sheep find that the supposed wolf is, in

41

fact, their friend, and that he is endeavoring to rescue
them from the exactions of the pretended shepherd,
who creates, by falsehood, the fear on which he
lives?




SECOND INTERVIEW.


Por. Why, man, what's the matter? Don't tear
your hair.

Sir Hugh. I have been beaten in a discussion,
overwhelmed and humiliated.

Por. Why didn't you call your adversary a fool?

Sir Hugh. My God! I forgot it!

Question. I want to ask you a few questions
about the second sermon of Mr. Talmage;
have you read it, and what do you think of it?