Answer. The text taken by the reverend gentle-
man is an insult, and was probably intended as such:
"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."
Mr. Talmage seeks to apply this text to any one
who denies that the Jehovah of the Jews was and is
the infinite and eternal Creator of all. He is per-
fectly satisfied that any man who differs with him on
this question is a "fool," and he has the Christian
forbearance and kindness to say so. I presume he

46

is honest in this opinion, and no doubt regards Bruno,
Spinoza and Humboldt as driveling imbeciles. He
entertains the same opinion of some of the greatest,
wisest and best of Greece and Rome.

No man is fitted to reason upon this question who
has not the intelligence to see the difficulties in all
theories. No man has yet evolved a theory that
satisfactorily accounts for all that is. No matter
what his opinion may be, he is beset by a thousand
difficulties, and innumerable things insist upon an
explanation. The best that any man can do is to
take that theory which to his mind presents the
fewest difficulties. Mr. Talmage has been educated
in a certain way—has a brain of a certain quantity,
quality and form—and accepts, in spite it may be,
of himself, a certain theory. Others, formed differ-
ently, having lived under different circumstances,
cannot accept the Talmagian view, and thereupon he
denounces them as fools. In this he follows the
example of David the murderer; of David, who
advised one of his children to assassinate another;
of David, whose last words were those of hate and
crime. Mr. Talmage insists that it takes no especial
brain to reason out a "design" in Nature, and in a
moment afterward says that "when the world slew

47

"Jesus, it showed what it would do with the eternal
"God, if once it could get its hands on Him." Why
should a God of infinite wisdom create people who
would gladly murder their Creator? Was there any
particular "design" in that? Does the existence
of such people conclusively prove the existence of a
good Designer? It seems to me—and I take it that
my thought is natural, as I have only been born
once—that an infinitely wise and good God would
naturally create good people, and if he has not, cer-
tainly the fault is his. The God of Mr. Talmage
knew, when he created Guiteau, that he would
assassinate Garfield. Why did he create him? Did
he want Garfield assassinated? Will somebody be
kind enough to show the "design" in this trans-
action? Is it possible to see "design" in earth-
quakes, in volcanoes, in pestilence, in famine, in
ruthless and relentless war? Can we find "design" in
the fact that every animal lives upon some other—
that every drop of every sea is a battlefield where
the strong devour the weak? Over the precipice
of cruelty rolls a perpetual Niagara of blood. Is
there "design" in this? Why should a good God
people a world with men capable of burning their
fellow-men—and capable of burning the greatest and

48

best? Why does a good God permit these things?
It is said of Christ that he was infinitely kind and
generous, infinitely merciful, because when on earth
he cured the sick, the lame and blind. Has he not
as much power now as he had then? If he was and
is the God of all worlds, why does he not now give
back to the widow her son? Why does he with-
hold light from the eyes of the blind? And why
does one who had the power miraculously to feed
thousands, allow millions to die for want of food?
Did Christ only have pity when he was part human?
Are we indebted for his kindness to the flesh that
clothed his spirit? Where is he now? Where has he
been through all the centuries of slavery and crime?
If this universe was "designed," then all that
happens was "designed." If a man constructs an
engine, the boiler of which explodes, we say either
that he did not know the strength of his materials, or
that he was reckless of human life. If an infinite being
should construct a weak or imperfect machine, he must
be held accountable for all that happens. He cannot
be permitted to say that he did not know the strength
of the materials. He is directly and absolutely re-
sponsible. So, if this world was designed by a being
of infinite power and wisdom, he is responsible for

49

the result of that design. My position is this: I do
not know. But there are so many objections to the
personal-God theory, that it is impossible for me to
accept it. I prefer to say that the universe is all the
God there is. I prefer to make no being responsible.
I prefer to say: If the naked are clothed, man
must clothe them; if the hungry are fed, man must
feed them. I prefer to rely upon human endeavor,
upon human intelligence, upon the heart and brain
of man. There is no evidence that God has ever
interfered in the affairs of man. The hand of earth
is stretched uselessly toward heaven. From the
clouds there comes no help. In vain the shipwrecked
cry to God. In vain the imprisoned ask for liberty
and light—the world moves on, and the heavens are
deaf and dumb and blind. The frost freezes, the fire
burns, slander smites, the wrong triumphs, the good
suffer, and prayer dies upon the lips of faith.

Question. Mr. Talmage charges you with being
"the champion blasphemer of America"—what do
you understand blasphemy to be?

Answer. Blasphemy is an epithet bestowed by su-
perstition upon common sense. Whoever investi-
gates a religion as he would any department of

50

science, is called a blasphemer. Whoever contradicts
a priest, whoever has the impudence to use his own
reason, whoever is brave enough to express his
honest thought, is a blasphemer in the eyes of the
religionist. When a missionary speaks slightingly of
the wooden god of a savage, the savage regards him
as a blasphemer. To laugh at the pretensions of
Mohammed in Constantinople is blasphemy. To say
in St. Petersburg that Mohammed was a prophet of
God is also blasphemy. There was a time when to
acknowledge the divinity of Christ in Jerusalem was
blasphemy. To deny his divinity is now blasphemy
in New York. Blasphemy is to a considerable extent
a geographical question. It depends not only on what
you say, but where you are when you say it. Blas-
phemy is what the old calls the new,—what last
year's leaf says to this year's bud. The founder of
every religion was a blasphemer. The Jews so re-
garded Christ, and the Athenians had the same
opinion of Socrates. Catholics have always looked
upon Protestants as blasphemers, and Protestants have
always held the same generous opinion of Catholics.
To deny that Mary is the Mother of God is blas-
phemy. To say that she is the Mother of God is
blasphemy. Some savages think that a dried snake-

51

skin stuffed with leaves is sacred, and he who thinks
otherwise is a blasphemer. It was once blasphemy
to laugh at Diana, of the Ephesians. Many people
think that it is blasphemous to tell your real opinion
of the Jewish Jehovah. Others imagine that words
can be printed upon paper, and the paper bound into
a book covered with sheepskin, and that the book is
sacred, and that to question its sacredness is blas-
phemy. Blasphemy is also a crime against God, but
nothing can be more absurd than a crime against
God. If God is infinite, you cannot injure him. You
cannot commit a crime against any being that you
cannot injure. Of course, the infinite cannot be in-
jured. Man is a conditioned being. By changing
his conditions, his surroundings, you can injure him;
but if God is infinite, he is conditionless. If he is
conditionless, he cannot by any possibility be injured.
You can neither increase, nor decrease, the well-being
of the infinite. Consequently, a crime against God
is a demonstrated impossibility. The cry of blasphemy
means only that the argument of the blasphemer can-
not be answered. The sleight-of-hand performer,
when some one tries to raise the curtain behind which
he operates, cries "blasphemer!" The priest, find-
ing that he has been attacked by common sense,—

52

by a fact,—resorts to the same cry. Blasphemy is the
black flag of theology, and it means: No argument
and no quarter! It is an appeal to prejudice, to
passions, to ignorance. It is the last resort of a
defeated priest. Blasphemy marks the point where
argument stops and slander begins. In old times, it
was the signal for throwing stones, for gathering
fagots and for tearing flesh; now it means falsehood
and calumny.

Question. Then you think that there is no such
thing as the crime of blasphemy, and that no such
offence can be committed?

Answer. Any one who knowingly speaks in favor
of injustice is a blasphemer. Whoever wishes to
destroy liberty of thought,—the honest expression of
ideas,—is a blasphemer. Whoever is willing to malign
his neighbor, simply because he differs with him upon
a subject about which neither of them knows anything
for certain, is a blasphemer. If a crime can be com-
mitted against God, he commits it who imputes to
God the commission of crime. The man who says
that God ordered the assassination of women and
babes, that he gave maidens to satisfy the lust of
soldiers, that he enslaved his own children,—that man

53

is a blasphemer. In my judgment, it would be far
better to deny the existence of God entirely. It
seems to me that every man ought to give his honest
opinion. No man should suppose that any infinite
God requires him to tell as truth that which he knows
nothing about.

Mr. Talmage, in order to make a point against
infidelity, states from his pulpit that I am in favor of
poisoning the minds of children by the circulation of
immoral books. The statement is entirely false. He
ought to have known that I withdrew from the Liberal
League upon the very question whether the law should
be repealed or modified. I favored a modification
of that law, so that books and papers could not be
thrown from the mails simply because they were
"infidel."

I was and am in favor of the destruction of
every immoral book in the world. I was and am
in favor, not only of the law against the circulation
of such filth, but want it executed to the letter in every
State of this Union. Long before he made that state-
ment, I had introduced a resolution to that effect, and
supported the resolution in a speech. Notwithstand-
ing these facts, hundreds of clergymen have made
haste to tell the exact opposite of the truth. This

54

they have done in the name of Christianity, under the
pretence of pleasing their God. In my judgment, it
is far better to tell your honest opinions, even upon
the subject of theology, than to knowingly tell a false-
hood about a fellow-man. Mr. Talmage may have
been ignorant of the truth. He may have been misled
by other ministers, and for his benefit I make this ex-
planation. I wanted the laws modified so that bigotry
could not interfere with the literature of intelligence;
but I did not want, in any way, to shield the writers or
publishers of immoral books. Upon this subject I
used, at the last meeting of the Liberal League that
I attended, the following language:

"But there is a distinction wide as the Mississippi,
"yes, wider than the Atlantic, wider than all oceans,
"between the literature of immorality and the litera-
"ture of free thought. One is a crawling, slimy lizard,
"and the other an angel with wings of light. Let us
"draw this distinction. Let us understand ourselves.
"Do not make the wholesale statement that all these
"laws ought to be repealed. They ought not to be
"repealed. Some of them are good, and the law
"against sending instruments of vice through the
"mails is good. The law against sending obscene
"pictures and books is good. The law against send-

55

"ing bogus diplomas through the mails, to allow a
"lot of ignorant hyenas to prey upon the sick people
"of the world, is a good law. The law against rascals
"who are getting up bogus lotteries, and sending their
"circulars in the mails is a good law. You know, as
"well as I, that there are certain books not fit to go
"through the mails. You know that. You know there
"are certain pictures not fit to be transmitted, not fit
"to be delivered to any human being. When these
"books and pictures come into the control of the
"United States, I say, burn them up! And when any
"man has been indicted who has been trying to make
"money by pandering to the lowest passions in the
"human breast, then I say, prosecute him! let the
"law take its course."

I can hardly convince myself that when Mr.
Talmage made the charge, he was acquainted with
the facts. It seems incredible that any man, pre-
tending to be governed by the law of common
honesty, could make a charge like this knowing
it to be untrue. Under no circumstances, would
I charge Mr. Talmage with being an infamous
man, unless the evidence was complete and over-
whelming. Even then, I should hesitate long before
making the charge. The side I take on theological

56

questions does not render a resort to slander or
calumny a necessity. If Mr. Talmage is an honor-
able man, he will take back the statement he has
made. Even if there is a God, I hardly think that
he will reward one of his children for maligning
another; and to one who has told falsehoods about
"infidels," that having been his only virtue, I doubt
whether he will say: "Well done good and faithful
"servant."

Question. What have you to say to the charge
that you are endeavoring to "assassinate God,"
and that you are "far worse than the man who at-
"tempts to kill his father, or his mother, or his sister,
"or his brother"?

Answer. Well, I think that is about as reason-
able as anything he says. No one wishes, so far as I
know, to assassinate God. The idea of assassinating
an infinite being is of course infinitely absurd. One
would think Mr. Talmage had lost his reason! And
yet this man stands at the head of the Presbyterian
clergy. It is for this reason that I answer him. He
is the only Presbyterian minister in the United
States, so far as I know, able to draw an audience.
He is, without doubt, the leader of that denomination.

57

He is orthodox and conservative. He believes im-
plicitly in the "Five Points" of Calvin, and says
nothing simply for the purpose of attracting attention.
He believes that God damns a man for his own glory;
that he sends babes to hell to establish his mercy,
and that he filled the world with disease and crime
simply to demonstrate his wisdom. He believes that
billions of years before the earth was, God had made
up his mind as to the exact number that he would
eternally damn, and had counted his saints. This
doctrine he calls "glad tidings of great joy." He
really believes that every man who is true to himself
is waging war against God; that every infidel is a
rebel; that every Freethinker is a traitor, and that
only those are good subjects who have joined the
Presbyterian Church, know the Shorter Catechism by
heart, and subscribe liberally toward lifting the mort-
gage on the Brooklyn Tabernacle. All the rest are
endeavoring to assassinate God, plotting the murder
of the Holy Ghost, and applauding the Jews for the
crucifixion of Christ. If Mr. Talmage is correct in
his views as to the power and wisdom of God, I
imagine that his enemies at last will be overthrown,
that the assassins and murderers will not succeed, and
that the Infinite, with Mr. Talmage s assistance, will

58

finally triumph. If there is an infinite God, certainly
he ought to have made man grand enough to have
and express an opinion of his own. Is it possible
that God can be gratified with the applause of moral
cowards? Does he seek to enhance his glory by
receiving the adulation of cringing slaves? Is God
satisfied with the adoration of the frightened?

Question. You notice that Mr. Talmage finds
nearly all the inventions of modern times mentioned
in the Bible?

Answer: Yes; Mr. Talmage has made an ex-
ceedingly important discovery. I admit that I am
somewhat amazed at the wisdom of the ancients.
This discovery has been made just in the nick of
time. Millions of people were losing their respect
for the Old Testament. They were beginning to
think that there was some discrepancy between the
prophecies of Ezekiel and Daniel and the latest devel-
opments in physical science. Thousands of preachers
were telling their flocks that the Bible is not a
scientific book; that Joshua was not an inspired as-
tronomer, that God never enlightened Moses about
geology, and that Ezekiel did not understand the
entire art of cookery. These admissions caused

59

some young people to suspect that the Bible, after all,
was not inspired; that the prophets of antiquity did
not know as much as the discoverers of to-day. The
Bible was falling into disrepute. Mr. Talmage has
rushed to the rescue. He shows, and shows conclu-
sively as anything can be shown from the Bible, that
Job understood all the laws of light thousands of
years before Newton lived; that he anticipated the
discoveries of Descartes, Huxley and Tyndall; that
he was familiar with the telegraph and telephone;
that Morse, Bell and Edison simply put his discov-
eries in successful operation; that Nahum was, in
fact, a master-mechanic; that he understood perfectly
the modern railway and described it so accurately
that Trevethick, Foster and Stephenson had no diffi-
culty in constructing a locomotive. He also has
discovered that Job was well acquainted with the
trade winds, and understood the mysterious currents,
tides and pulses of the sea; that Lieutenant Maury
was a plagiarist; that Humboldt was simply a biblical
student. He finds that Isaiah and Solomon were
far in advance of Galileo, Morse, Meyer and Watt.
This is a discovery wholly unexpected to me. If
Mr. Talmage is right, I am satisfied the Bible is an
inspired book. If it shall turn out that Joshua was

60

superior to Laplace, that Moses knew more about
geology than Humboldt, that Job as a scientist was
the superior of Kepler, that Isaiah knew more than
Copernicus, and that even the minor prophets ex-
celled the inventors and discoverers of our time—
then I will admit that infidelity must become speech-
less forever. Until I read this sermon, I had never
even suspected that the inventions of modern times
were known to the ancient Jews. I never supposed
that Nahum knew the least thing about railroads, or
that Job would have known a telegraph if he had seen
it. I never supposed that Joshua comprehended the
three laws of Kepler. Of course I have not read
the Old Testament with as much care as some other
people have, and when I did read it, I was not looking
for inventions and discoveries. I had been told so
often that the Bible was no authority upon scientific
questions, that I was lulled into a state of lethargy.
What is amazing to me is, that so many men did
read it without getting the slightest hint of the
smallest invention. To think that the Jews read that
book for hundreds and hundreds of years, and yet
went to their graves without the slightest notion of
astronomy, or geology, of railroads, telegraphs, or
steamboats! And then to think that the early fathers

61

made it the study of their lives and died without in-
venting anything! I am astonished that Mr. Talmage
himself does not figure in the records of the Patent
Office. I cannot account for this, except upon the
supposition that he is too honest to infringe on the
patents of the patriarchs. After this, I shall read
the Old Testament with more care.

Question. Do you see that Mr. Talmage endeav-
ors to convict you of great ignorance in not knowing
that the word translated "rib" should have been
translated "side," and that Eve, after all, was not
made out of a rib, but out of Adam's side?

Answer. I may have been misled by taking the
Bible as it is translated. The Bible account is simply
this: "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall
"upon Adam, and he slept. And he took one of
"his ribs and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
"and the rib which the Lord God had taken from
"man made he a woman, and brought her unto the
"man. And Adam said: This is now bone of my
"bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called
"woman, because she was taken out of man." If
Mr. Talmage is right, then the account should be as
follows: "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep

62

"to fall upon Adam, and he slept; and he took one
"of his sides, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
"and the side which the Lord God had taken from
"man made he a woman, and brought her unto the
"man. And Adam said: This is now side of my
"side, and flesh of my flesh." I do not see that the
story is made any better by using the word "side"
instead of "rib." It would be just as hard for God
to make a woman out of a man's side as out of a
rib. Mr. Talmage ought not to question the power
of God to make a woman out of a bone, and he must
recollect that the less the material the greater the
miracle.

There are two accounts of the creation of man,
in Genesis, the first being in the twenty-first verse
of the first chapter and the second being in the
twenty-first and twenty-second verses of the sec-
ond chapter.

According to the second account, "God formed
"man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into
"his nostrils the breath of life." And after this,
"God planted a garden eastward in Eden and put
"the man" in this garden. After this, "He made
"every tree to grow that was good for food and
"pleasant to the sight," and, in addition, "the tree

63

"of life in the midst of the garden," beside "the tree
"of the knowledge of good and evil." And he "put
"the man in the garden to dress it and keep it,"
telling him that he might eat of everything he saw
except of "the tree of the knowledge of good and
"evil."

After this, God having noticed that it "was not
"good for man to be alone, formed out of the ground
"every beast of the field, every fowl of the air, and
"brought them to Adam to see what he would call
"them, and Adam gave names to all cattle, and to
"the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field.
"But for Adam there was not found an helpmeet for
"him."

We are not told how Adam learned the language,
or how he understood what God said. I can hardly
believe that any man can be created with the know-
ledge of a language. Education cannot be ready
made and stuffed into a brain. Each person must
learn a language for himself. Yet in this account we
find a language ready made for man's use. And not
only man was enabled to speak, but a serpent also
has the power of speech, and the woman holds a
conversation with this animal and with her husband;
and yet no account is given of how any language was

64

learned. God is described as walking in the garden
in the cool of the day, speaking like a man—holding
conversations with the man and woman, and occa-
sionally addressing the serpent.

In the nursery rhymes of the world there is
nothing more childish than this "inspired" account
of the creation of man and woman.

The early fathers of the church held that woman
was inferior to man, because man was not made for
woman, but woman for man; because Adam was
made first and Eve afterward. They had not the
gallantry of Robert Burns, who accounted for the
beauty of woman from the fact that God practiced
on man first, and then gave woman the benefit of
his experience. Think, in this age of the world,
of a well-educated, intelligent gentleman telling his
little child that about six thousand years ago a
mysterious being called God made the world out of
his "omnipotence;" then made a man out of some
dust which he is supposed to have moulded into
form; that he put this man in a garden for the pur-
pose of keeping the trees trimmed; that after a little
while he noticed that the man seemed lonesome, not
particularly happy, almost homesick; that then it oc-
curred to this God, that it would be a good thing for

65

the man to have some company, somebody to help
him trim the trees, to talk to him and cheer him up
on rainy days; that, thereupon, this God caused
a deep sleep to fall on the man, took a knife, or a
long, sharp piece of "omnipotence," and took out one
of the man's sides, or a rib, and of that made a
woman; that then this man and woman got along
real well till a snake got into the garden and induced
the woman to eat of the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil; that the woman got the man to take
a bite; that afterwards both of them were detected by
God, who was walking around in the cool of the
evening, and thereupon they were turned out of the
garden, lest they should put forth their hands and eat
of the tree of life, and live forever.

This foolish story has been regarded as the sacred,
inspired truth; as an account substantially written by
God himself; and thousands and millions of people
have supposed it necessary to believe this childish
falsehood, in order to save their souls. Nothing
more laughable can be found in the fairy tales and
folk-lore of savages. Yet this is defended by the
leading Presbyterian divine, and those who fail to
believe in the truth of this story are called "brazen
"faced fools," "deicides," and "blasphemers."

66

By this story woman in all Christian countries was
degraded. She was considered too impure to preach
the gospel, too impure to distribute the sacramental
bread, too impure to hand about the sacred wine,
too impure to step within the "holy of holies," in the
Catholic Churches, too impure to be touched by a
priest. Unmarried men were considered purer than
husbands and fathers. Nuns were regarded as su-
perior to mothers, a monastery holier than a home, a
nunnery nearer sacred than the cradle. And through
all these years it has been thought better to love
God than to love man, better to love God than to
love your wife and children, better to worship an
imaginary deity than to help your fellow-men.

I regard the rights of men and women equal. In
Love's fair realm, husband and wife are king and
queen, sceptered and crowned alike, and seated on
the self-same throne.

Question. Do you still insist that the Old Testa-
ment upholds polygamy? Mr. Talmage denies this
charge, and shows how terribly God punished those
who were not satisfied with one wife.

Answer. I see nothing in what Mr. Talmage has
said calculated to change my opinion. It has been

67

admitted by thousands of theologians that the Old
Testament upholds polygamy. Mr. Talmage is
among the first to deny it. It will not do to say that
David was punished for the crime of polygamy
or concubinage. He was "a man after God's own
"heart." He was made a king. He was a successful
general, and his blood is said to have flowed in the
veins of God. Solomon was, according to the ac-
count, enriched with wisdom above all human beings.
Was that a punishment for having had so many
wives? Was Abraham pursued by the justice of
God because of the crime against Hagar, or for the
crime against his own wife? The verse quoted by
Mr. Talmage to show that God was opposed to
polygamy, namely, the eighteenth verse of the eight-
eenth chapter of Leviticus, cannot by any ingenuity
be tortured into a command against polygamy. The
most that can be possibly said of it is, that you shall
not marry the sister of your wife, while your wife is
living. Yet this passage is quoted by Mr. Talmage
as "a thunder of prohibition against having more
"than one wife." In the twentieth chapter of
Leviticus it is enacted: "That if a man take a wife
"and her mother they shall be burned with fire." A
commandment like this shows that he might take his

68

wife and somebody else's mother. These passages
have nothing to do with polygamy. They show
whom you may marry, not how many; and there is
not in Leviticus a solitary word against polygamy—
not one. Nor is there such a word in Genesis, nor
Exodus, nor in the entire Pentateuch—not one
word. These books are filled with the most minute
directions about killing sheep, and goats and doves;
about making clothes for priests, about fashioning
tongs and snuffers; and yet, they contain not one
word against polygamy. It never occurred to the in-
spired writers that polygamy was a crime. Polygamy
was accepted as a matter of course. Women were
simple property.

Mr. Talmage, however, insists that, although God
was against polygamy, he permitted it, and at the
same time threw his moral influence against it.
Upon this subject he says: "No doubt God per-
"mitted polygamy to continue for sometime, just
"as he permits murder and arson, theft and gam-
"bling to-day to continue, although he is against
"them." If God is the author of the Ten Com-
mandments, he prohibited murder and theft, but
he said nothing about polygamy. If he was so
terribly against that crime, why did he forget to

69

mention it? Was there not room enough on the
tables of stone for just one word on this subject?
Had he no time to give a commandment against
slavery? Mr. Talmage of course insists that God
had to deal with these things gradually, his idea being
that if God had made a commandment against them all
at once, the Jews would have had nothing more to do
with him.

For instance: if we wanted to break cannibals
of eating missionaries, we should not tell them all
at once that it was wrong, that it was wicked, to
eat missionaries raw; we should induce them first
to cook the missionaries, and gradually wean them
from raw flesh. This would be the first great step.
We would stew the missionaries, and after a time
put a little mutton in the stew, not enough to excite
the suspicion of the cannibal, but just enough to get
him in the habit of eating mutton without knowing it.
Day after day we would put in more mutton and less
missionary, until finally, the cannibal would be perfectly
satisfied with clear mutton. Then we would tell him
that it was wrong to eat missionary. After the can-
nibal got so that he liked mutton, and cared nothing
for missionary, then it would be safe to have a law
upon the subject.

70

Mr. Talmage insists that polygamy cannot exist
among people who believe the Bible. In this he is
mistaken. The Mormons all believe the Bible. There
is not a single polygamist in Utah who does not insist
upon the inspiration of the Old and New Testaments.

The Rev. Mr. Newman, a kind of peripatetic consu-
lar theologian, once had a discussion, I believe, with
Elder Orson Pratt, at Salt Lake City, upon the question
of polygamy. It is sufficient to say of this discussion
that it is now circulated by the Mormons as a campaign
document. The elder overwhelmed the parson.
Passages of Scripture in favor of polygamy were
quoted by the hundred. The lives of all the patriarchs
were brought forward, and poor parson Newman was
driven from the field. The truth is, the Jews at that
time were much like our forefathers. They were
barbarians, and many of their laws were unjust
and cruel. Polygamy was the right of all; practiced,
as a matter of fact, by the rich and powerful, and the
rich and powerful were envied by the poor. In such
esteem did the ancient Jews hold polygamy, that the
number of Solomons wives was given, simply to en-
hance his glory. My own opinion is, that Solomon
had very few wives, and that polygamy was not
general in Palestine. The country was too poor, and

71

Solomon, in all his glory was hardly able to support
one wife. He was a poor barbarian king with a
limited revenue, with a poor soil, with a sparse popu-
lation, without art, without science and without power.
He sustained about the same relation to other kings
that Delaware does to other States. Mr. Talmage
says that God persecuted Solomon, and yet, if he will
turn to the twenty-second chapter of First Chronicles,
he will find what God promised to Solomon. God,
speaking to David, says: "Behold a son shall be born
"to thee, who shall be a man of rest, and I will give him
"rest from his enemies around about; for his name shall
"be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness
"unto Israel in his days. He shall build a house in my
"name, and he shall be my son and I will be his father,
"and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over
"Israel forever." Did God keep his promise?

So he tells us that David was persecuted by
God, on account of his offences, and yet I find in
the twenty-eighth verse of the twenty-ninth chapter
of First Chronicles, the following account of the death
of David: "And he died in a good old age, full of
"days, riches and honor." Is this true?

Question. What have you to say to the charge
that you were mistaken in the number of years that

72

the Hebrews were in Egypt? Mr. Talmage says that
they were there 430 years, instead of 215 years.

Answer. If you will read the third chapter of
Galatians, sixteenth and seventeenth verses, you will
find that it was 430 years from the time God made the
promise to Abraham to the giving of the law from
Mount Sinai. The Hebrews did not go to Egypt for
215 years after the promise was made to Abraham,
and consequently did not remain in Egypt more than
215 years. If Galatians is true, I am right.

Strange that Mr. Talmage should belittle the mira-
cles. The trouble with this defender of the faith is that
he cares nothing for facts. He makes the strangest
statements, and cares the least for proof, of any
man I know. I can account for what he says of me
only upon the supposition that he has not read my
lectures. He may have been misled by the pirated
editions; Persons have stolen my lectures, printed the
same ones under various names, and filled them with
mistakes and things I never said. Mr. C. P. Farrell,
of Washington, is my only authorized publisher.
Yet Mr. Talmage prefers to answer the mistakes of
literary thieves, and charge their ignorance to me.

Question. Did you ever attack the character of
Queen Victoria, or did you draw any parallel between

73

her and George Eliot, calculated to depreciate the
reputation of the Queen?

Answer. I never said a word against Victoria.
The fact is, I am not acquainted with her—never met
her in my life, and know but little of her. I never
happened to see her "in plain clothes, reading the
"Bible to the poor in the lane,"—neither did I ever
hear her sing. I most cheerfully admit that her
reputation is good in the neighborhood where she
resides. In one of my lectures I drew a parallel
between George Eliot and Victoria. I was showing
the difference between a woman who had won her
position in the world of thought, and one who was
queen by chance. This is what I said:

"It no longer satisfies the ambition of a great man
"to be a king or emperor. The last Napoleon was
"not satisfied with being the Emperor of the French.
"He was not satisfied with having a circlet of gold
"about his head—he wanted some evidence that he
"had something of value in his head. So he wrote
"the life of Julius Cæsar that he might become a
"member of the French Academy. The emperors,
"the kings, the popes, no longer tower above their
"fellows. Compare King William with the philoso-
"pher Hæckel. The king is one of the 'anointed

74

"'of the Most High'—as they claim—one upon
"whose head has been poured the divine petroleum
"of authority. Compare this king with Hæckel, who
"towers an intellectual Colossus above the crowned
"mediocrity. Compare George Eliot with Queen
"Victoria. The queen is clothed in garments given
"her by blind fortune and unreasoning chance, while
"George Eliot wears robes of glory, woven in the
"loom of her own genius. The world is beginning
"to pay homage to intellect, to genius, to heart."
I said not one word against Queen Victoria, and did
not intend to even intimate that she was not an ex-
cellent woman, wife and mother. I was simply trying
to show that the world was getting great enough to
place a genius above an accidental queen. Mr. Tal-
mage, true to the fawning, cringing spirit of ortho-
doxy, lauds the living queen and cruelly maligns the
genius dead. He digs open the grave of George Eliot,
and tries to stain the sacred dust of one who was the
greatest woman England has produced. He calls her
"an adultress." He attacks her because she was an
atheist—because she abhorred Jehovah, denied the
inspiration of the Bible, denied the dogma of eternal
pain, and with all her heart despised the Presbyterian
creed. He hates her because she was great and brave

75

and free—because she lived without "faith" and died
without fear—because she dared to give her honest
thought, and grandly bore the taunts and slanders of
the Christian world.

George Eliot tenderly carried in her heart the
burdens of our race. She looked through pity's tears
upon the faults and frailties of mankind. She knew
the springs and seeds of thought and deed, and saw,
with cloudless eyes, through all the winding ways of
greed, ambition and deceit, where folly vainly plucks
with thorn-pierced hands the fading flowers of selfish
joy—the highway of eternal right. Whatever her
relations may have been—no matter what I think, or
others say, or how much all regret the one mistake in
all her self-denying, loving life—I feel and know that
in the court where her own conscience sat as judge, she
stood acquitted—pure as light and stainless as a star.

How appropriate here, with some slight change,
the wondrously poetic and pathetic words of Laertes
at Ophelia's grave:

Leave her i' the earth;
And from her fair and unpolluted flesh
May violets spring!
I tell thee, churlish priest,
A ministering angel shall this woman be,
When thou liest howling!

I have no words with which to tell my loathing for
a man who violates a noble woman's grave.

76

Question. Do you think that the spirit in which
Mr. Talmage reviews your lectures is in accordance
with the teachings of Christianity?

Answer. I think that he talks like a true Presby-
terian. If you will read the arguments of Calvin
against the doctrines of Castalio and Servetus, you will
see that Mr. Talmage follows closely in the footsteps
of the founder of his church. Castalio was such a
wicked and abandoned wretch, that he taught the
innocence of honest error. He insisted that God
would not eternally damn a man for being honestly
mistaken. For the utterance of such blasphemous
sentiments, abhorrent to every Christian mind, Calvin
called him "a dog of Satan, and a child of hell." In
short, he used the usual arguments. Castalio was
banished, and died in exile. In the case of Servetus,
after all the epithets had been exhausted, an appeal
was made to the stake, and the blasphemous wretch
was burned to ashes.

If you will read the life of John Knox, you will find
that Mr. Talmage is as orthodox in his methods of
dealing with infidels, as he is in his creed. In my
opinion, he would gladly treat unbelievers now, as the
Puritans did the Quakers, as the Episcopalians did the
Presbyterians, as the Presbyterians did the Baptists,

77

and as the Catholics have treated all heretics. Of
course, all these sects will settle their differences in
heaven. In the next world, they will laugh at the
crimes they committed in this.

The course pursued by Mr. Talmage is consistent.
The pulpit cannot afford to abandon the weapons of
falsehood and defamation. Candor sows the seeds of
doubt. Fairness is weakness. The only way to suc-
cessfully uphold the religion of universal love, is to
denounce all Freethinkers as blasphemers, adulterers,
and criminals. No matter how generous they may
appear to be, no matter how fairly they may deal with
their fellow-men, rest assured that they are actuated
by the lowest and basest motives. Infidels who out-
wardly live honest and virtuous lives, are inwardly
vicious, virulent and vile. After all, morality is only
a veneering. God is not deceived with the varnish of
good works. We know that the natural man is
totally depraved, and that until he has been regene-
rated by the spirit of God, he is utterly incapable of a
good action. The generosity of the unbeliever is, in
fact, avarice. His honesty is only a form of larceny.
His love is only hatred. No matter how sincerely
he may love his wife,—how devoted he may be to
his children,—no matter how ready he may be 'to

78

sacrifice even his life for the good of mankind, God,
looking into his very heart, finds it only a den of
hissing snakes, a lair of wild, ferocious beasts, a cage
of unclean birds.

The idea that God will save a man simply because
he is honest and generous, is almost too preposterous
for serious refutation. No man should rely upon his
own goodness. He should plead the virtue of another.
God, in his infinite justice, damns a good man on his
own merits, and saves a bad man on the merits of
another. The repentant murderer will be an angel
of light, while his honest and unoffending victim will
be a fiend in hell.

A little while ago, a ship, disabled, was blown about
the Atlantic for eighty days. Everything had been
eaten. Nothing remained but bare decks and hunger.
The crew consisted of Captain Kruger and nine others.
For nine days, nothing had been eaten. The captain,
taking a revolver in his hand, said: "Mates, some
"one must die for the rest. I am willing to sacrifice
"myself for you." One of his comrades grasped his
hand, and implored him to wait one more day. The
next morning, a sail was seen upon the horizon, and
the dying men were rescued.

To an ordinary man,—to one guided by the light of

79

reason,—it is perfectly clear that Captain Kruger was
about to do an infinitely generous action. Yet Mr.
Talmage will tell us that if that captain was not a
Christian, and if he had sent the bullet crashing
through his brain in order that his comrades might eat
his body, and live to reach their wives and homes,—
his soul, from that ship, would have gone, by dark
and tortuous ways, down to the prison of eternal pain.

Is it possible that Christ would eternally damn a
man for doing exactly what Christ would have done,
had he been infinitely generous, under the same cir-
cumstances? Is not self-denial in a man as praise-
worthy as in a God? Should a God be worshiped,
and a man be damned, for the same action?

According to Mr. Talmage, every soldier who fought
for our country in the Revolutionary war, who was
not a Christian, is now in hell. Every soldier, not a
Christian, who carried the flag of his country to vic-
tory—either upon the land or sea, in the war of 1812,
is now in hell. Every soldier, not a Christian, who
fought for the preservation of this Union,—to break
the chains of slavery—to free four millions of people
—to keep the whip from the naked back—every man
who did this—every one who died at Andersonville
and Libby, dreaming that his death would help make

80

the lives of others worth living, is now a lost and
wretched soul. These men are now in the prison of
God,—a prison in which the cruelties of Libby and
Andersonville would be regarded as mercies,—in
which famine would be a joy.




THIRD INTERVIEW.

Sinner. Is God infinite in wisdom and power?

Parson. He is.

Sinner. Does he at all times know just what ought
to be done?

Parson. He does.

Sinner. Does he always do just what ought to be
done?

Parson. He does.

Sinner. Why do you pray to him?

Parson. Because he is unchangeable.

Question. I want to ask you a few questions
about Mr. Talmage's third sermon. What do
you think of it?

Answer. I often ask myself the questions: Is
there anything in the occupation of a minister,—any-
thing in his surroundings, that makes him incapable
of treating an opponent fairly, or decently? Is there
anything in the doctrine of universal forgiveness that
compels a man to speak of one who differs with him
only in terms of disrespect and hatred? Is it neces-
sary for those who profess to love the whole world,
to hate the few they come in actual contact with?

84

Mr. Talmage, no doubt, professes to love all man-
kind,—Jew and Gentile, Christian and Pagan. No
doubt, he believes in the missionary effort, and thinks
we should do all in our power to save the soul of the
most benighted savage; and yet he shows anything
but affection for the "heathen" at home. He loves
the ones he never saw,—is real anxious for their wel-
fare,—but for the ones he knows, he exhibits only
scorn and hatred. In one breath, he tells us that
Christ loves us, and in the next, that we are "wolves
"and dogs." We are informed that Christ forgave
even his murderers, but that now he hates an honest
unbeliever with all his heart. He can forgive the
ones who drove the nails into his hands and feet,—
the one who thrust the spear through his quivering
flesh,—but he cannot forgive the man who entertains
an honest doubt about the "scheme of salvation."
He regards the man who thinks, as a "mouth-maker
"at heaven." Is it possible that Christ is less for-
giving in heaven than he was in Jerusalem? Did he
excuse murderers then, and does he damn thinkers
now? Once he pitied even thieves; does he now
abhor an intellectually honest man?

Question. Mr. Talmage seems to think that you
have no right to give your opinion about the Bible.

85

Do you think that laymen have the same right as
ministers to examine the Scriptures?

Answer. If God only made a revelation for
preachers, of course we will have to depend on the
preachers for information. But the preachers have
made the mistake of showing the revelation. They
ask us, the laymen, to read it, and certainly there is
no use of reading it, unless we are permitted to think
for ourselves while we read. If after reading the Bible
we believe it to be true, we will say so, if we are
honest. If we do not believe it, we will say so, if we
are honest.

But why should God be so particular about our
believing the stories in his book? Why should God
object to having his book examined? We do not
have to call upon legislators, or courts, to protect
Shakespeare from the derision of mankind. Was not
God able to write a book that would command the
love and admiration of the world? If the God of
Mr. Talmage is infinite, he knew exactly how the
stories of the Old Testament would strike a gentle-
man of the nineteenth century. He knew that many
would have their doubts,—that thousands of them—
and I may say most of them,—would refuse to believe
that a miracle had ever been performed.

86

Now, it seems to me that he should either have left
the stories out, or furnished evidence enough to con-
vince the world. According to Mr. Talmage, thou-
sands of people are pouring over the Niagara of
unbelief into the gulf of eternal pain. Why does not
God furnish more evidence? Just in proportion as
man has developed intellectually, he has demanded
additional testimony. That which satisfies a barbarian,
excites only the laughter of a civilized man. Cer-
tainly God should furnish evidence in harmony with
the spirit of the age. If God wrote his Bible for the
average man, he should have written it in such a way
that it would have carried conviction to the brain and
heart of the average man; and he should have
made no man in such a way that he could not, by any
possibility, believe it. There certainly should be a
harmony between the Bible and the human brain. If
I do not believe the Bible, whose fault is it? Mr.
Talmage insists that his God wrote the Bible for me.
and made me. If this is true, the book and the man
should agree. There is no sense in God writing
a book for me and then making me in such a way that
I cannot believe his book.

Question. But Mr. Talmage says the reason why
you hate the Bible is, that your soul is poisoned; that

87

the Bible "throws you into a rage precisely as pure
"water brings on a paroxysm of hydrophobia."

Answer. Is it because the mind of the infidel is
poisoned, that he refuses to believe that an infinite
God commanded the murder of mothers, maidens and
babes? Is it because their minds are impure, that
they refuse to believe that a good God established
the institution of human slavery, or that he protected
it when established? Is it because their minds are
vile, that they refuse to believe that an infinite God
established or protected polygamy? Is it a sure
sign of an impure mind, when a man insists that
God never waged wars of extermination against his
helpless children? Does it show that a man has
been entirely given over to the devil, because he
refuses to believe that God ordered a father to sacri-
fice his son? Does it show that a heart is entirely
without mercy, simply because a man denies the
justice of eternal pain?

I denounce many parts of the Old Testament
because they are infinitely repugnant to my sense
of justice,—because they are bloody, brutal and in-
famous,—because they uphold crime and destroy