HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Select Committee on West Coast of Africa.
R. R. Gibbons, Esq. to Messrs. Zulueta & Co.

Gentlemen, July 15th, 1842.

I send you herewith a copy of evidence given by Captain Hill, of a later date than that I sent on a previous occasion.

Lunæ, 4º die Julii, 1842.

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Viscount Sandon, in the chair.

Captain Henry Worsley Hill, called in; and further Examined.

7958*. Chairman.] Have you something which you wish to add to your evidence on the case of the Augusta?—Yes; I wish to state, with respect to my detaining the Augusta, the grounds on which the seizure was made, as far as my memory will admit of my going, and I feel myself at liberty to disclose to the Committee. On going on board the Augusta, amongst the letters and papers that were seized by me, I found a letter, dated “London, 20th August 1840.” This letter is a reply to a letter written by Captain Jennings from Portsmouth, stating, “We cannot exceed 500l. for the vessel in question, such as described in your letter; if you cannot, therefore, succeed at those limits, we must give up the purchase.” This letter is signed Zulueta & Co. By this letter, it certainly appears to me that the vessel was purchased by Zulueta &, Co., or intended to be purchased by that firm. The next letter is dated “London, 26th of September 1840,” addressed to Captain Thomas Jennings, Portsmouth; the signature of this letter was cut out on my finding it. It acknowledged the receipt of Captain Jenning’s letter of the following day, observing “that the sum remitted would not be sufficient to cover the expenses, to clear the ship, and requesting that Captain Jennings would write the next day, stating the sum that was necessary, that it might be forwarded to him by the post of Monday night, to enable the ship to sail for Liverpool on Tuesday or Wednesday at furthest.” The signature cut out. But there is a note to the letter: “According to our Liverpool mode, note, you will go on shore to the Salt House Dock.” The next paper I would allude to, is the charter-party of the vessel, dated London, 19th October 1840, wherein it is mutually agreed, between Mr. Thomas Jennings, master and owner of the good ship or vessel called the Augusta, and Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of Havannah, that the ship shall load from the factories of the said Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. a cargo of legal goods, and shall proceed therewith to Gallinas, on the coast of Africa, and there deliver the same; after which she may be sent on any legal voyage between the West Indies, England, Africa, or the United States, according to the directions of the charterer’s agents. The freight to be paid on unloading and right delivery of the cargo, at the rate of 100l. sterling per calendar month. The necessary cash for the ship’s disbursements to be furnished to the captain free of commission; the captain being indebted to the charterers in certain sums, as per acknowledgment elsewhere. The freight earned by the vessel to be held as general lien for such sums.” This is signed Thomas Jennings, for Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of Havannah, Zulueta & Co.

7959*. Jennings is the owner of the vessels?—Yes.

7960*. And Zulueta appears as the agent to Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co., chartering Jenning’s vessel for certain purposes?—Yes; by the extract from the first letter it appears that Zulueta bought the vessel; by the second letter he pays the expenses of the vessel; but the charter-party is made out by Thomas Jennings, as the owner of the vessel.

7961*. Sir T. D. Acland.] Then Zulueta acts as agent for Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co.?—Yes; the next paper, I will read the extract from is marked “Additional Memorandum of Charter-party;” which commences, “I Thomas Jennings, captain and owner of the ship Augusta, declare I have received from Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of this city, 1,100l. sterling, for the disbursements of the said ship, the fitting out and provisions, which I engage myself to repay, with the earnings of the same, namely, all the earnings of the ship, will be accounted for and applied to the said Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co., they furnishing the cash for all expenses, crew’s wages (including 15l. per month for my salary as captain). At any time when the said gentlemen may think proper to close the charter-party, I will deliver to them, or their representative, a bill of sale for the said ship, and all her appurtenances, to cover the balance due to them in the said account.” It states, that Mr. Thomas Jennings is no way responsible for the settlement of the above-mentioned debt, but with the said ship and her earnings, and that Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. will take on themselves the insurance and risk on the vessel. This paper is dated London, 21st October, 1840, and signed “Thomas Jennings.” The next paper is the bill of lading, which states the cargo to be shipped by Thomas Jennings, of Liverpool, in the Augusta, lying in the port of Liverpool and bound to Gallinas: 20 hogsheads of tobacco, 60 cases of arms, one case of looking-glasses, 10 casks copper ware, 134 bales of merchandize, 1,600 iron pots, 2,370 kegs of gunpowder, to be delivered at Gallinas to Don Alvarez, Don Angel Ximenez, and Don Jose Perez Rolla. This is dated Liverpool, 10th November 1840. The vessel had no register, but a sailing licence from the Commissioners of Her Majesty’s Customs, wherein Thomas Jennings, of No. 2, James-street, Limehouse, is represented to be the owner, and that the vessel is to be employed in foreign trade. There is also an account current between Messrs. Zulueta with Thomas Jennings, master of the Augusta, amounting to 339l. 16s. 9d., the chief part of which is for the disbursements of the vessel. I further state to the Committee, that ten letters were found on board this vessel, dated Cadiz, and addressed to three notorious slave merchants at Gallinas: in one of these letters, addressed to Señor Ignacio Perez Rolla, at Gallinas, dated Cadiz, 30th November 1840, is a paragraph to the following effect: “In a letter, dated London the 21st instant, which I have just received from Messrs. Zulueta & Co., merchants, in London, I had the pleasure of receiving a bill drawn by you on them for 250l., which I this day place to their credit, waiting your advice of the same.” This letter is signed “M.” but no name. The other letters were all on slave business; not a word of any innocent trade, but the whole directing how slaves were to be shipped on board various vessels.

7962*. Who were they signed by?—All signed in the same way.

7963*. Signed “M.”?—Yes, and to the best of my recollection, every vessel to which they referred was captured by Captain Denman and myself.

7964*. Where were these letters dated from?—From Cadiz; the Vanguardia was captured by Captain Denman; the Uracca by myself, the Diana also; the other vessel referred to in the letters is the Gabriel, which vessel fired upon the boats of Her Majesty’s vessel Termagant, killing three or four of her crew, and has been since captured by the Acorn, Captain Adams. Therefore these letters at once show that the three persons to whom they were addressed, residing at Gallinas, and who were the parties to whom the Augusta was consigned, were most extensively engaged in slave dealing. No other letters were found on board the Augusta but those that related to slave dealing.

7965*. The Augusta had touched at Cadiz on her way out from England?—Yes, and landed part of her cargo at Cadiz, although it was consigned to be delivered at Gallinas.

7966*. What are the inferences that you draw from these papers?—That Zulueta, by the letter of the 20th of August, 1840, advanced the money for the purchase of the vessel; that by the letter of the 26th of September, that Zulueta advanced the money to defray her expenses and fitting out, necessary before she proceeded to sea; that Mr. Jennings was put in as the owner, when in fact he was not the owner; that Zulueta was perfectly aware of this, and that he chartered the vessel to carry a cargo on behalf of Messrs. Pedro Martinez & Co. of Havannah, a notorious slave dealer, which cargo was to be delivered to three notorious slave dealers at the Gallinas; that afterwards these notorious slave dealers at Gallinas were to have the direction of the vessel for the future proceedings; and, moreover, that at any time Messrs. Martinez, or their agents, thought proper to close the charter party, the vessel was to be given up to their agents, by which means, a ship bearing English colours was certainly employed by notorious slave dealers; she was to be directed in her voyage by slave dealers; and she was, at any time these notorious slave dealers thought proper to name, to be given up to them entirely. This transaction, with the purchase of the vessel, and a person put in as the nominal owner who was not the owner, cannot but stamp a character that the vessel was engaged, with the knowledge of Zulueta, in some trade that they were desirous should not be discovered.

7967*. Mr. Forster.] Inform the Committee in what way you connect Messrs. Zulueta & Co. illegally with any improper transaction there, or what part of the transaction which you have detailed it was not competent for foreign merchants to perform as agents in this country; mention which part they were not bound to perform, provided they received instructions from their agents at Havannah to do it, having money in their hands to make a purchase of the vessel and ship the goods?—Messrs. Zulueta must be aware that it is contrary to law to act as agents, or otherwise, for the shipment of goods that are to be employed in the slave trade; they were bound to do no thing illegal; they are merchants residing in England, and they must conform themselves to the laws of England, and they cannot, by the laws of England, plead ignorance of those laws.

7968*. Chairman.] You conceive it would be unlawful for an agent in this country to ship goods to be employed in the slave trade?—Yes.

7969*. Mr. Forster.] How is a merchant acting in this country in pursuance of orders from his correspondent abroad to know what that correspondent means to do with the goods which he purchases on his account and ships at Liverpool?—In this case I think it is plain that Messrs. Zulueta entered into a scheme for chartering and purchasing a vessel, and putting in an owner, and establishing a British character to a vessel that he could not be ignorant was to be engaged in the slave trade, or in some trade which, for reasons that Messrs. Martinez may have, that they wished to keep in the back ground, and that secrecy alone ought to have called from Messrs. Zulueta a degree of vigilance, and more particularly a vessel being bound to a place on the coast of Africa, where, if they had taken the slightest trouble in the world, they must have known there were no constituted authorities or custom-house officers, or any persons of an European nation who could ascertain if she was engaged in legal trade.

7970*. Then, in fact, you think it is imperative on the English merchant, before he executes the orders of his foreign correspondent, in any matter relating to the trade between Brazils, Cuba, and the coast of Africa, to send out and inquire the character of the party with whom the transaction is connected on the coast of Africa?—I have stated nothing of the sort; but I have endeavoured to be particular in making it appear that this vessel was chartered to a place where there were no constituted authorities. A vessel to be chartered to the Brazils or Cuba, or any country where authorities existed in the colony of a recognized nation, would materially alter the position of Messrs. Zulueta; but Messrs. Zulueta, as I before stated, residing in England, it became the duty of that house to be guarded that they did not break the laws.

7971*. Do you speak of this as a matter of prudence and taste on the part of Zulueta & Co., or as an act of criminality?—As far as I am able to give my own opinion, I believe that Messrs. Zulueta were perfectly criminal; at least they had a perfect knowledge of what they were doing. I think I am borne out in that by the secrecy they have endeavoured to purchase, and putting in a false owner. Messrs. Zulueta have been for a number of years agents to the notorious Pedro Blanco; they have also before this purchased and sent out to the Havannah a notorious slave vessel called the Arrogante, which circumstance was represented by Mr. Tolme, Her Majesty’s consul at the Havannah, to the English Government, and is also in the printed correspondence laid before parliament, either for the year 1839 or 1840. In fact, there can be no want of evidence to show that Messrs. Zulueta had for a length of time been agents to slave dealers; and I think it is impossible that any merchant can be an agent and ship cargoes of goods without ascertaining some knowledge of the party for whom they are shipped.

7972*. in the first place, you assume that it was illegal for Messrs. Zulueta & Co. to ship these goods to Alvarez at the Gallinas; are you quite sure that that is not a gratuitous assumption of law on your part?—I am speaking from my own belief; I cannot say what the law is, but I am speaking from my own belief, and the inferences I can draw from the vessel’s papers. I think the papers are quite conclusive to the mind of any man that Zulueta was cognizant of what he was doing; but as far as it is an illegal transaction it is not for me to judge, but the judge of the Vice-Admiralty Court of Sierra Leone did think it illegal, and condemned the vessel; and, moreover, the man who is put forward as captain and owner did not defend the vessel on her trial.

7973*. Are you quite sure he had the means to do so?—He cannot plead as an excuse that he had not the means, for the owner of a vessel in a British port, with a cargo worth between 4,000l. and 5,000l., I think, could always manage to raise 30l. or 40l. for the defence of his vessel.

7974*. Was that cargo in his possession, or was it under seizure at the time you speak of?—The vessel and all was seized by me, but still there was the captain and the owner present, and nothing was touched until the condemnation took place.

7975*. How could he offer security and raise money on a seized ship and cargo?—To say how he is to do so is not for me; I am not a mercantile man, but I only observe, that it is most extraordinary that the owner of a ship, with a cargo on board, cannot, in a British port, raise 50l. for the defence of that vessel.

7976*. But how can you affect any wonder on that subject, when you yourself admit that you do not know how he was to do it?—I have already stated that I am no mercantile man, and to say how these things are done, I cannot.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
TAKEN BEFORE
THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON WEST COAST OF AFRICA.

Mercurii, 22º die Junii, 1842.

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Captain the Honourable Joseph Denman, R. N. called in; and Examined.

6540. Chairman.] Will you state what your service on the coast of Africa has been?—My first acquaintance with the coast of Africa was in the year 1834, when I took over a slave vessel from Rio Janeiro. In the year 1835 I commanded the Curlew, upon that coast, for a considerable period; and for the last two years I have been in charge of the coast between Cape Verde and Cape Palmas. I was the senior officer upon that district.

6541. What has been the course of the slave trade since your acquaintance with the coast of Africa; has it decreased in extent, or changed its direction?—Since my first acquaintance with the coast, the slave trade has changed in many most important particulars, both with regard to the locality and with regard to the method in which it has been carried on.

6542. Will you state first, as to the locality, in what respect it has changed?—In the year 1835, when the Equipment Treaty came into force, the effect was, in a great measure, to drive the slave trade into the south latitude, where it was carried on with perfect impunity, under the flag of Portugal, by the then existing treaty. They then found that upon the north coast they could carry on the slave trade, by using the flag of Portugal, exactly as before.

6543. By the north coast, you mean north of the equator?—Yes: but from the end of the year 1839 they have been equally shut out from the Portuguese and from the Spanish flag. Up to that period no check whatever had been effected. Since that period I conceive that the slave trade has diminished to one-half what it was before.

6544. Not only north of the equator, but along the whole coast?—Along the whole coast of Africa. The whole amount of the export of slaves from Africa is, in my opinion, now, not one-half what it was previously to the Act of 2 Victoria, empowering us to capture Portuguese ships fitted for the slave trade. The effect of all former changes had been to throw the slave trade under the flag of Portugal, where it received a perfect protection in the southern latitude, and in the northern latitude was on the same footing on which it had been always since the trade was first established.

6545. Does the trade seem now to look to any flag to cover itself under?—They seem to have been deprived of every flag they could possibly look to; they no longer receive protection from any flag.

6546. Not from the American?—Not from the American flag, decidedly, except indirectly.

6547. Do you conceive that the present system, if carried on with the same amount of force, will reduce the slave trade to a still greater extent?—My opinion is, that the system of blockade is that which alone can be successful under any circumstances, but that to render it effective we want a considerable increase of force; with an increase of force I believe that in three years the slave trade may be demolished and exterminated.

6548. Sir T. D. Acland.] In the south as well as in the north?—Yes; there is no longer any difference since the 2nd of Victoria.

6549. Chairman.] Do you contemplate a blockade of the whole coast?—I contemplate the blockade of those parts where the slave trade is carried on.

6550. Do you believe that a material check to the trade, or an extirpation of the trade for two or three years, in any one place, makes it difficult to resume it afterwards, if the interference of the cruizers is suspended?—It turns the trade into another course. When once the trade is interrupted at any place, people are not in the habit of sending traders up the country for slaves, and traders from the interior cease to bring slaves down to them there, and there is great difficulty felt in resuming it; and in almost every instance legitimate commerce comes in, and the wants of the natives are supplied by those means; but I would not in such cases suspend the interference of the cruizers altogether, until the slave trade should be entirely eradicated.

6551. You believe that when the slave trade is checked for a period, legitimate commerce grows up in its place, and the desire to resume it is diminished?—I think the desire to resume it is diminished, in the first place, principally on account of the difficulty of resuming it. I believe that all over Africa the natives prefer the slave trade to any other trade.

6552. But you conceive that the lawful trade co-operates with the efforts of the cruizers?—In speaking of lawful trade I think it is necessary to state, that in my opinion the only legitimate trade of Africa, in the strict sense of the term, is that wherein goods are paid for in produce; all other trade, more or less, is connected with the slave trade.

6553. You mean that the money by which goods are paid for can only have been acquired by the slave trade?—Universally by the slave trade; dollars are brought upon the coast by no other means.

6554. Mr. Forster.] Those dollars and doubloons being diffused over the coast, in what way would you propose to stop the circulation of them?—I do not propose to stop the circulation of them.

6555. Chairman.] When you say “lawful trade,” you mean trade which you would consider as free from any connexion with the slave trade?—Trade which is altogether unconnected with the slave trade.

6556. Where it is a mere exchange of goods for produce, you see no connexion with the slave trade?—No connexion whatever.

6557. But where you see an exchange of goods for money, there you conceive there is at least a suspicion of the slave trade?—I do not think that an individual receiving dollars or money upon the coast should of necessity be suspected or accused of engaging in or conniving at the slave trade in any way; I merely say that such transactions do indirectly partake and mingle with slave-trading transactions.

6558. Because the money is brought upon the coast originally only by the slave trade?—Yes.

6559. But the parties receiving the money may be totally exempt from any connexion themselves with the slave trade?—They may be certainly unconnected with the slave trade altogether.

6560. Wherever the slave trade is carried on, there probably money will be found?—Invariably.

6561. And therefore those who deal in lawful goods, in places where the slave trade is also carried on, will probably receive money in the course of their transactions?—In many places altogether money.

6562. What is the change in the system of blockade at present, as compared with the former system?—Under the former system we had no power over the ship until the slaves were actually on board. The consequence was, that if a man-of-war lay in a port full of slavers, as I have seen Whydah, with ten or a dozen slavers at one time, so long as the man-of-war was in sight they would not ship their slaves; directly the man-of-war was out of sight they shipped their slaves; and every vessel in the harbour would weigh their anchor and set sail. The cruizer would probably chase the wrong ship, and after having chased 100 miles would be laughed at by the master of her, and told that he only did it as a pasatiempo.

6563. Then the change of system is essentially dependent upon the power of seizing under the equipment treaty?—Yes, entirely; the system of blockade is only effective in consequence of that change in the powers of the cruizers.

6564. Sir T. D. Acland.] The equipment treaty allows you to enter rivers, and to board ships even while lying in the river?—The equipment treaties do not give any new rights as regards places.

6565. Under that treaty you may examine slavers lying in the river, and seize them there?—The sole difference is this, we might have searched them formerly as we may search them now, but we could not seize them before unless slaves were on board.

6566. Chairman.] Are you acquainted with the condition of the leeward coast?—I have not been on the leeward coast since the year 1835.

6567. You cannot speak to the condition of that coast as to the slave trade?—I can state that then it was carried on to an enormous extent; that I knew 20 sail of vessels to be there, and that under those former treaties every one of those 20 escaped with full cargoes of slaves.

6568. You have been cruizing the last two years to the north of Cape Palmas?—I have.

6569. What are the points that have been principally the resort of the slave trade during that period?—The Gallinas, to an enormous extent; New Cestos, which lies to the southward of Mesurado, between Mesurado and Cape Palmas; Sea-bar at the Sherboro’ river; the rivers Pongas, Bissao, and Cacheo.

6570. Which should you say have been the places from which the slave trade has been carried on with the greatest vigour?—The Gallinas, immeasurably more than any other place; but at Bissao, since the destruction of the Gallinas, owing to the great difficulty of cruizing there, it has increased, and no doubt will increase more, unless proper measures are taken.

6571. What is the great difficulty of cruizing off Bissao?—There is an inland navigation, a chain reaching from Bissao to the sea upon the north. There are innumerable islands to the south, amongst which there are seven or eight different passages by which the slavers could escape; and there is the Portuguese settlement of Bissao, under which a slaver may lie with perfect impunity under the Portuguese flag. From all those circumstances, there is the greatest difficulty in the cruizers operating effectually there.

6572. You have not the right of capturing under the walls of either a Spanish or a Portuguese fort?—No, we cannot supersede their municipal laws; all we can do is to remonstrate with the authorities.

6573. But you may seize as soon as the vessel is out of their waters?—Yes; but they take care never to go out when you are in the neighbourhood; they can get the most perfect information by canoes.

6574. Would steamers be especially adapted for cruizing on that coast?—I consider two steamers indispensable for eradicating the slave trade between the isle of Bulama and Bissao, assisted by two cruizers at least; but a yet more important object is the occupation of the Bulama island, from which the slavers have received the greatest possible assistance, and the occupation of which would directly intercept the principal supply of slaves. It is an island not only of immense importance as regards commerce, but also of extraordinary fertility.

6575. Is it salubrious?—I cannot say that any part of the coast of Africa is salubrious, but I have no reason to believe that it is less so than other parts; this inland is one of the last importance; I do not think it is possible to appreciate it without seeing Captain Belcher’s chart.

6576. What is the importance of that island to commerce?—It is at the mouth of all the rivers; the river Nunez, which is a river of vast importance, in my opinion, and the Rio Grande, and the Rio Pongos. It intercepts the trade with Bissao completely.

6577. Do those great rivers open out a fertile country?—I think not, generally; I think the banks are generally very swampy near the sea; but there is a very large inland trade brought down the river, both in slaves and produce: the slaves are carried almost entirely to Bissao.

6578. Sir R. H. Inglis.] You have referred to the occupation of the island of Bulama, as furnishing by its geographical position a most important station for the prevention of the slave trade, was not it selected by Captain Beaver for that purpose, and was not its almost proverbial unhealthiness the cause of its abandonment?—I believe there was a great deal of prejudice upon the subject; I believe, moreover, that the settlement was most injudiciously selected for health, and I think, besides, that if you compare it with certain periods at Sierra Leone, and every other part of the coast, there will be found periods quite as unhealthy at other places as at Bulama. I think Captain Beaver’s account of the island fully explains the causes of the sickness. It was very much from the misconduct of the people. I know that when orders came out to declare the sovereignty of Great Britain over that island, 1,600 persons at Sierra Leone volunteered to me to go there to settle it at a time when the emigrant ships could not get a man, so high was the impression of the people as to its advantages.

6579. Mr. W. Patten.] Are none of the other islands so well situated?—None to be compared to this, and this is the only one over which we have any claim.

6580. In point of health how are the other islands as compared with Bulama?—I have no means of judging, being inhabited by barbarous piratical people, with whom we have no sort of intercourse at present; the policy of the Portuguese is to keep all the persons surrounding their settlement in the most barbarous state.

6581. Mr. Aldam.] What is the nature of the land on the opposite coast?—All swampy, I believe.

6582. Then is not the island necessarily unhealthy?—No, I think not; I think that if the sea coast on the western side of the island was occupied, it would not be so; it is certainly not more swampy than the Gambia itself, and many other settlements.

6583. Mr. Forster.] You attribute the failure of Captain Beaver to the inadequacy of the means that he employed rather than to the fault of the island?—I think it was a great deal owing to that; I think there is no proof that the island is unhealthy to the extent supposed, and I believe the island might be immediately peopled by blacks.

6584. Have you in the course of your cruizing on the coast of Africa seen any part that appeared to you to be so eligible for a settlement as the island of Bulama?—I have already stated in as strong terms as I am able, the importance of the island, in my opinion, in every respect; there may be places that I should suppose to be more healthy; for instance, Sierra Leone itself, is apparently the most healthy part of the whole coast, but there seems to be great doubt whether it is so.

6585. Mr. Aldam.] If the opposite coast is swampy, would not fever almost always prevail there when the wind sets from the land?—I am not at all able to say what causes fever, for we find it under all circumstances; you find sometimes swampy places less unhealthy than high places.

6586. Mr. Forster.] Did you land on the island of Bulama?—Yes.

6587. Have you seen any considerable portion of the island?—No, I have not, excepting the coast.

6588. Is it your opinion that there is open ground there?—I found the ground under cultivation, and therefore only told the people that it was a British island; I thought it would have been injudicious to remove them and let jungles spring up before the Government took possession of it.

6589. You saw no extraordinary obstacle to the cultivation and improvement of the island?—Decidedly not; I think it is the most favourable spot for cultivation I have seen upon the coast of Africa.

6590. Have you been up to the river Nunez or the river Pongas?—I have been up the Nunez and the Pongas.

6591. To what distance?—I went up the Nunez as high as Kacundy, about 40 or 50 miles in a direct line; it is where the British factories are; it is the place to which all the trade of the Foota-Jallon nation is brought.

6592. Did you land upon the banks of the river?—Yes; I was five days in the river altogether.

6593. Did you see any thing of the state of the cultivation?—I had no means of judging; I do not believe the exports of the produce raised in the neighbourhood of the river itself at all important; the important commerce is that which is brought down from Foota-Jallon; and the opportunities I had of judging gave me the highest impression of the state of that country. I think they are far superior to any other African people I have ever had the means of acquiring a knowledge of; they are a Foolah nation, in the Foota-Jallon country; Teembo is the capital.

6594 Mr. Forster.] You found those British factories depending entirely upon the protection of the natives, without any British establishment to assist them?—I went up for the purpose of affording them protection; there is no Government establishment of any sort, nor do I think it desirable there should be.

6595. Sir T. D. Acland.] What is the ground of that opinion?—That the river is exceedingly unhealthy; and my opinion is that the Government influence would be quite as well supported by occasional visits by steam ships, and Bulama would afford support to the trade, if colonized.

6596. Chairman.] What kind of settlement do you contemplate upon the island of Bulama?—A colony of black people, with any traders there that choose to go there, supported by a small fort, with a detachment of the African corps.

6597. Sir T. D. Acland.] Under the English Government?—Under the English Government.

6597*. And visited by steamers?—And visited by steamers and cruizers.

6598. Mr. W. Patten.] What time does it require to go from Sierra Leone to Bulama?—It depends a great deal upon the time of year; I should say, generally, the passage might be made in less than three days.

6599. Do you recollect the distance?—I am not quite sure; 200 miles, I should think.

6600. Sir T. D. Acland.] Would you have this colony dependent upon the Government of Sierra Leone?—Yes, I think decidedly.

6601. Mr. Forster.] Tn preference to its being attached to the Gambia?—It depends upon the facility of communication between the two; whichever the communication is most easy with, I should say it should be connected with. I am not prepared to say at this moment with which the communication is most easy.

6602. Sir T. D. Acland.] But at all events you think it should be dependent upon one or the other, not separate?—I think so.

6603. Mr. Forster.] You were understood to say that the country up the River Nunez, and the River Pongas, is swampy in the interior?—The mouths of the rivers are swampy, but up the Nunez there is good rising ground; the Pongas is a succession of creeks joining each other.

6604. Did you become acquainted with the fact up the Nunez of the growth of coffee on the mountains?—I became aware of the fact of coffee growing in whole forests, which have been hitherto neglected in consequence of the duties amounting to a prohibition.

6605. Is it your opinion that the slave trade is carried on in the Nunez to any material extent?—The Portuguese settlement of Bissao has small boats and canoes collecting slaves, together with produce, as far down as the north bank of the Sierra Leone river; there are many of those boats and canoes employed in the Nunez, but to the best of my belief no vessel has carried slaves from thence for several years, except in one instance, where, under the plea of recruits, the French took away a cargo.

6606. Chairman.] The canoes go about picking up a few at a time, and collecting them into a store, as it were, at Bissao and Cacheo?—At Bissao and Cacheo; I have no doubt that there are also barracoons upon the Bissagos islands, but I had no opportunity to examine as to the fact.

6607. Mr. Forster.] You do not consider the British factories in Rio as at all responsible for those proceedings?—Decidedly not; I have no reason to suppose that they are.

6608. How do you account for so few cruizers having generally visited that part of the coast hitherto?—Because the station which I had charge of has generally been very short of cruizers; the only means of communication was by boats, and owing to the long exposure, and the fatigue it occasioned, it invariably cost the lives of about a fourth of the people employed, whereas a steamer might do in one day what boats take four or five days to do.

6609. Chairman.] How would you provide fuel for the steamers in those parts?—I am not aware how far wood might be substituted for coal; I think in that part wood certainly might be used, because they would be able to take in supplies so frequently.

6610. They would have no long distances to go?—Not in that district.

6611. So that they need never be far removed from the depôts?—Precisely; there might be depôts at Bulama, and at the Gambia, and at Sierra Leone; the great difficulty is the engineers; you are obliged to have white engineers at present, but there is no sort of reason why black people of Sierra Leone should not be brought up for the purpose. There are numbers sufficiently educated for the purpose, and with proper instruction, in the course of a few years, they would supersede the necessity for white engineers.

6612. Mr. Forster.]—Have you not found the natives rather remarkable for the quickness and facility with which they learn mechanical operations of that kind?—I have found them quite equal to white people in that respect, possessing great intelligence, and quickness, and shrewdness, making allowance for their want of education and barbarous habits in general.

6613. Mr. Wortley.] Did you ever consider how far it would be possible to establish an effective blockade upon the coast which has been the scene of the slave trade by means of a combination of steamers and sailing cruizers?—I believe that by such means, by taking certain districts of the coast pointed out by particular circumstances, and effectively and continuously blockading those parts, and then moving from point to point, leaving a smaller force to prevent the slave trade from reviving, that system would be perfectly effective in the course of three years, supposing the forces to be increased.

6614. Sir T. D. Acland.] From what point to what point?—I speak merely of the West Coast, I have no knowledge of the East; but I have no hesitation in saying that it might be effected from Cape Verde down to the northern part of our Cape of Good Hope dominions.

6615. Mr. Wortley.] In order to accomplish that object are you able to state what you imagine would be the necessary force of steamers and cruizers?—I should say that steamers are only necessary in particular parts; I should say that six steamers would be quite enough.

6616. Chairman.] And how many sailing-vessels?—There are now upon the coast sixteen sailing-vessels; I would increase them by at least one-half; I would withdraw all the cruizers now employed in checking the slave trade on the other side of the Atlantic; I consider them, as regards the suppression of the slave trade, as entirely useless.

6617. Do you know what number are employed on the other side of the Atlantic?—On the other side of the Atlantic they have various other duties to perform; I can scarcely say that any of them are exclusively employed in this service.

6618. Mr. Wortley.] But the whole number there is rendered large by having this service to perform?—Yes.

6619. Can you say what number it would be possible to dispense with, in case the slave trade service were discontinued on the other side of the Atlantic?—I cannot answer this question, as they have various other duties to perform, and are not exclusively employed against slave trade.

6620. When you said that you would increase the number of cruizers by one-half, did you mean that you would increase it by one-half, including the number of steamers that you propose to have?—No, excluding those; I would make the present 16 vessels 24, and have six steamers in addition.

6621. And you think that if there were a force of that kind employed upon the West Coast of Africa, it would have the effect of entirely suppressing the slave trade?—If a proper system of blockade were adopted, I have no doubt of it.

6622. Chairman.] Do you consider that it is useless, towards putting down the slave trade, to capture slave vessels off the coast of Brazil or the West Indies?—My opinion is, that any captures there are such utter chance that they do no good whatever, as on that side not one vessel out of ten can ever be captured, and wherever it is reduced to a chance at all, the profits are sufficient to keep up the slave trade. My opinion is, that the only way in which the slave trade can be stopped is in the interior of Africa. Every slave vessel that sails with her cargo of slaves has already done all she can to keep the slave trade going in Africa. The native dealer has his profit upon them; he does not care where she goes to, or what becomes of the slaves afterwards.

6623. Mr. Forster.] Is not a slave vessel captured on the western side of the Atlantic, equally a loss to the slave dealer as a slave vessel captured on the eastern side of the Atlantic?—My opinion is, that the amount of loss to the slave dealer is of little consequence, seeing that it is the result of chances which, in that quarter, must be always immensely in favour of the slave dealer, and that, compared with the chance of escape, the chance of capture is nothing; the profits are so large that the risk will be readily incurred.

6624. Chairman.] You think that the chance of escape is much greater with cruizers on the western side of the Atlantic than on the eastern?—My opinion is, that if the slaves are once on board, the mischief is already done.

6625. Mr. Aldam.] Do you think that the only effect of capturing a slave ship off the coast of America, is to increase the price of slaves, and that any increase which that can cause, the planters can still afford to pay?—The capture of a slave ship after her slaves are on board inflicts a heavy loss on the owners; but while embarkation can be effected to any extent, slave trade can never be stopped. The mere fact of keeping cruizers on the American side of the Atlantic is in itself an absolute proof of the want of success of our efforts, and the strongest argument in favour of the system I recommend. While slaves can be introduced, planters can afford to pay almost any price.

6626. Mr. Wortley.] Do you think it would be possible to suppress the slave trade by any system pursued in the interior of Africa, without an effectual suppression of the trade upon the coast?—The only way in which I contemplate the suppression of the slave trade in the interior of Africa, is by the suppression of the embarkation of slaves.

6627. As long as the temptation upon the coast exists, do you think it impossible to put an end to the slave trade in the interior?—Precisely; as long as embarkation takes place, that temptation continues, and the slave trade of the interior remains untouched.

6628. Chairman.] Has not the cruizing off the coast of Africa the additional advantage of protecting British trade incidentally, and showing to the natives before their eyes that the English flag is actively exerted to put down that traffic, which advantages would not be secured by cruizing on the western side of the Atlantic?—Certainly, it is one of our first duties to protect British trade, and in that respect I have no doubt it is useful, as well as in the suppression of the slave trade.

6629. Is it not of considerable advantage in a traffic like that upon the coast of Africa, that the British power should be pretty frequently displayed?—It is highly necessary.

6630. Chairman.] Supposing even the chance of capture to be equal in the two cases, has not cruizing off the coast of Africa the further advantage of checking or entirely preventing the horrors of the middle passage?—If you capture a full vessel upon the coast of Africa, she has nearly the same voyage to Sierra Leone from many parts: it depends upon circumstances.

6631. Sir R. H. Inglis.] You have stated that the slave trade is a favourite trade throughout Africa; would, therefore, the prevention of the slave trade, whether on the east or on the west of the Atlantic, remove the temptation in the one case more than in the other?—My opinion is, that the temptation is removed alone by throwing difficulties in the way of embarkation; because, as long as the native can sell his slaves, he does not care where they go to; he goes and buys more slaves.

6632. Chairman.] Would you think it advantageous if the cruizers were allowed to fit up one of their prizes as a cruizing tender?—It would be undoubtedly of great advantage, but it would be contrary to the treaties.

6633. To all the treaties?—I think to all the treaties; and it would be open to great abuses.

6634. What abuses?—I think you would have young midshipmen and people cruizing away in those vessels, and getting into scrapes, by improperly searching foreign vessels.

6635. You regard the duty as one of rather a delicate nature, which is not to be entrusted to subordinate officers?—The most difficult and the most delicate that a British officer can be entrusted with; the immense mischief produced by an indiscreet search, by giving offence to foreign nations, has been very much experienced.

6636. Do not the treaties require that officers of a certain rank shall alone be empowered to carry out the search?—That is the case in most of the treaties.

6637. Mr. Wortley.] Has not there been an improvement of late years in the class of vessels employed in cruizing?—Very great; I believe that for some years they have been replacing the old brigs with a superior class of vessels; fast sailing vessels, which are quite equal to the slavers in sailing qualities.

6638. Are you aware whether that change has been followed by a perceptible increase of efficiency in the service?—That change was about contemporaneous with the change by the Act of the 2d of Victoria; you cannot distinguish between the effects of the two.

6639. According to your observation, should you say that the present class of vessels is an efficient class for the service for which they are employed?—Decidedly; there are still a few of the old class, but they have been always replaced at the expiration of their term of service by efficient vessels.

6640. How are they in point of sailing as compared with the generality of slavers?—They are generally superior; I commanded one for two years, and I never chased a vessel that I did not overhaul; some got away from darkness coming on, but I had the advantage in point of sailing in every instance.

6641. What vessel was that?—The Wanderer, a 16-gun brig.

6642. Chairman.] What are the respective functions that you would assign to the sailing-vessel and to the steamer, the two acting in combination?—The steamer, I think, should be probing the rivers and ranging about the coast; the sailing-vessel should be as much as possible a fixture at the place where the slaves are put on board, which should never be left unguarded for an hour. The steamer should be employed in going from place to place to see whether from new places they are making arrangements to embark slaves, and also for carrying provisions and water, and in chasing; but steamers could not entirely blockade, because they are so much more frequently obliged to leave their stations for supplies.

6643. Mr. Wortley.] What was the system you generally pursued in the course of your service; did you pass your time principally in stationary blockade, or were you upon a moving cruize?—When I took charge of the station, the orders I issued to the other cruizers (as well as what I practised myself) were, to maintain the principle of blockade; and if they chased a vessel off a certain port where slaves were shipped, never to lose sight of that port; but if they could not catch the vessel without losing sight of it, to go back again, for she was sure to come back again, and there was no harm done. If, on the other hand, the chase is continued to any distance, other vessels might get in and ship slaves; and even the very one pursued might dodge the cruizer at night, and run in and effect her escape with a cargo.

6644. Mr. Aldam.] Then where would you place the six steamers you propose to have?—I would have two between Cape Mesaduro and the river Gambia, principally stationed at the Bissagos; but those operations I speak of would very soon alter the character of the trade, and it would be removed from point to point. I think there should be two more steamers, perhaps, between Cape Formosa and Cape Palmas, and two more to the southward of those points.

6645. Mr. Forster.] Do you think they could be navigated with wood fuel entirely?—I am not prepared to answer that question, but I think not; I think coal would be required upon most parts of the coast.

6646. Mr. Aldam.] What would be the size of the steamers necessary, the tonnage, and the power of the engine?—The steamers on the coast of Africa ought to be small steamers, not drawing more than five or six feet water.

6647. Chairman.] Might not the slave vessels be useful as tenders sometimes after condemnation?—Under the treaties we are not empowered to buy them. In the Act of 2d Victoria, there is a clause by which the Government can take any captured vessel that they please for the purpose of a tender,—one was established by me under that clause by orders from the Admiralty,—but not to cruize; simply to convey the prize crews to their proper ships.

6648. Mr. Forster.] Do not you consider the British settlements on the coast of Africa an important assistance in the suppression of the slave trade?—I consider that the settlements on shore have done some service in that way, but not half so much as they might have done.

6649. Chairman.] Will you state the grounds of that opinion?—With regard to Sierra Leone, I have no hesitation in saying, that the slave trade has derived great advantage from it, and that the British influence does not extend there much beyond the limits of the colony as regards this object. The entrance of the Sherboro’ river has on one side of it Sierra Leone, and there is a slave trade carried on there, and that has been owing to the view which the Government took of General Turner’s proceeding in 1826, the consequence of which has been to prevent future governors from attempting similar plans.

6650. What were those plans?—To obtain the sovereignty of the coast down as far as the Boom Kittam river, which lies on the south side of the Sherboro’, and from thence, I believe, to Cape Mount.

6651. Mr. Forster.] Had he already entered into treaties for that purpose?—He had already got possession as far as the Boom Kittam, and the Government ordered that that should be relinquished again.

6652. Chairman.] In what way has Sierra Leone lent assistance to the slave trade?—The slave vessels have been repeatedly purchased there by people, notoriously agents of Pedro Blanco, and others at Gallinas, and they have gone back into his hands.

6653. Mr. Forster.] Do you think the settlement of Sierra Leone was so much responsible for that as the system under which the vessels were sold?—I think the individuals who purchased slave vessels for slave dealers were very much to blame, and it is only to be regretted that no punishment could be inflicted upon them.

6654. Sir R. H. Inglis.] By the law at present the slave vessels must be broken up?—Not in all cases. Under the British law, the Act of the 5th George the 4th, vessels are not broken up, so that if a vessel is condemned in British waters by the British law, she is sold, and probably goes into a slave dealer’s hands the next day, which is the case also with vessels condemned under the Brazilian treaty.

6655. Mr. Forster.] Are you aware that those vessels are sold by auction to the highest bidder?—I am perfectly aware of that; that is according to the treaties under which they are condemned: it is no fault of the authorities of Sierra Leone nor of the Mixed Commission Court; the authorities are compelled to allow her to leave the port afterwards.

6656. If an agent of Pedro Blanco, or even Pedro Blanco himself, went into the auction room and bid the highest price he would get the vessel?—I suppose so.

6657. Chairman.] It is in that respect that you consider that Sierra Leone has afforded facilities to the slave trade?—It is in that respect; but, at the same time, I cannot conceive Pedro Blanco having the audacity to go into the sale room for such a purpose, or the authorities letting the vessel under such circumstances sail out of port.

6658. How could the authorities stop the vessel going out under the charge of Pedro Blanco himself, as well as under the charge of his agent?—I think the facts would be almost sufficient to prove that she was engaged in the slave trade; but there would be a difficulty, unless she had equipments about her.

6659. Mr. Forster.] You would not propose to punish the auctioneer who sold the vessel to the agent of Pedro Blanco?—No, he could not be responsible; he would be acting as a Government agent.

6660. Mr. Aldam.] If a vessel was purchased on behalf of a slave dealer at Sierra Leone, where would she clear for?—Probably for the Cape Verd Islands. I know two cases where the vessels cleared for the Cape Verd Islands; one of them I captured. I will state an instance of the way in which vessels not broken up pass into the slave trade again. The Republicano, a prize of the Fantome, was condemned at Sierra Leone; she was purchased by an individual known to be engaged in the slave trade; I went on board her and saw what her object was, that she was going to carry slaves, and I detained her.

6661*. The purchaser was a man known to be engaged in the slave trade?—Yes, and I detained her. When I went away myself I left orders with my agent, on no account to let her go without a decree of the court; but he thought that we could not prove sufficient to justify her detention, and he let her go. The purchaser then proceeded to the Cape de Verd Islands, and fitted her out for the slave trade, and she was taken off the Gallinas by Captain Hill, of the Saracen, perfectly equipped as a slave ship.

6662*. Who was the slave dealer?—He was an American; I forget his name.

6663*. Do you mean to say that he was a resident at Sierra Leone, carrying on the slave trade?—No; but I merely mention that as an instance of the way in which captured vessels, when not broken up, are afterwards employed again in the slave trade. I do not say that he was amenable to British law.

6664*. Chairman.] Was it the actual slave dealer who made the purchase in Sierra Leone?—He was a man known very well to be closely connected with a slave vessel lately condemned.

6665*. What was the nature of his real or supposed connexion with the slave trade?—I cannot exactly call to mind the proof of the fact; but that it was so a reference to the printed correspondence will show.

6666*. Mr. Aldam.] Whose name appeared as owner; was the owner of the ship that you captured a Spaniard or a Portuguese?—It was a Spanish master; she appeared as the property of the American who had made the purchase.

6667*. Chairman.] Have there been instances in which a slave dealer in his own person has come to Sierra Leone and made purchases of this kind?—In the case I have just mentioned he had been already brought to Sierra Leone in some vessel, but he was not known as Pedro Blanco was; but I believe there would be no means of preventing them from taking the vessel away, unless equipment was on board.

6668*. Has the colony of Sierra Leone in any other way contributed to the maintenance of the slave trade, besides the facilities which it has afforded of purchasing ships which have been condemned?—I have no doubt that some degree of communication has been kept up between the slave dealers in the neighbourhood of the Gallinas and the Sherboro’, and parties in Sierra Leone.

6669*. Have you reason to know that any liberated Africans have engaged in slave dealing?—I have no actual knowledge of any such circumstance; I have no doubt that many, I have proof that some, liberated Africans have been sold again into slavery.

6670*. To any extent?—I am not able to say to what extent; I should think to a considerable extent, from cases which have fallen within my knowledge.

6671*. Sir R. H. Inglis.] Do you believe that they have been kidnapped?—I am unable to say whether they were kidnapped or not; I should think it most likely.

6672*. Chairman.] What are the cases with which you are acquainted?—There were three cases at the Gallinas. There was one case in the Pongas, where I went up and liberated a girl who had been carried off.

6673*. Had those persons been carried off from within the district of Sierra Leone, or in the course of their traffic along the coast?—The one in the Pongas had been carried off from the colony of Sierra Leone, and one of them had been taken away as a servant, and left as a pawn; in fact a slave. The other two had been taken when out of the colony.

6674*. Was the case which you alluded to as having occurred within the colony itself, a case of kidnapping or abduction conducted by inhabitants of Sierra Leone?—I have Sir John Jeremie’s letter here upon the subject. By the Timmanees, I see, is the statement in the letter.

6675*. Then this is a case in which some strangers entered the country and carried off some of the inhabitants of Sierra Leone?—So it appears from the letter.

6661. Sir R. H. Inglis.] Then you wish the Committee to understand nothing more than that Sierra Leone has been the scene of incursions made with a view to carry persons as slaves from that part of Africa, as might have been the case from the Bonny?—I stated my belief that a considerable number had been kidnapped also by the people of Sierra Leone, and sold to natives who have carried them away, often in canoes.

6662. But you do not attribute that to any overt acts, or any neglect of the Government?—By no means; I think it is almost unavoidable under the circumstances.

6663. Chairman.] You have no reason to know that a system of kidnapping prevails in the colony, though individual instances may have occurred?—I have no reason to know it; but I have reason to believe that it did exist to a considerable extent, more particularly formerly, when a great number were landed from slave ships; but now that is reduced to a small number.

6664. In those instances of kidnapping you imagine that they were the acts rather of strangers to the colony than a system pursued by the inhabitants of the colony?—In many cases I think they were the acts of inhabitants of the colony, who had kidnapped people, or seduced them from the colony, and then sold them to the slave dealers.

6665. Upon what ground do you imagine that kidnapping does exist to a considerable extent in the colony?—I have heard the thing repeatedly stated with great confidence, and I think those instances go to prove it; when I went into the Gallinas I found 90 slaves, and of those 90 two were British subjects.

6666. Mr. Forster.] Could such a system have been carried on without the consequences of it becoming obvious to every person resident at Sierra Leone, and acquainted with the number of captured negroes in the neighbourhood?—I believe that it might at times, when there was a great influx of those black people; my opinion is, from what I have heard, but I am not able to enter into the facts very closely, that the apprenticeship system at Sierra Leone is extremely defective, and that the whole system of supervision over the liberated Africans, as well as of the apprentices, is also exceedingly bad, and open to great abuses.

6667. Chairman.] Would it not be the duty of the police magistrates of the district to see that there was no diminution of numbers by kidnapping?—I am not aware that there are any district police magistrates, except the superintendents of the villages.

6668. Do not those superintendents exercise the functions of magistrates?—I do not know; but they are very often taken off by sickness, and villages are frequently left without proper people to take charge of them; and I believe, in my own mind, that the system of kidnapping has gone on to some considerable extent.

6669. Mr. Forster.] But your opinion upon that subject is founded merely upon report?—Yes; and upon information I have received in conversation.

6670. Mr. Aldam.] Do you think that there is any remedy for that evil?—I think the only remedy would be to exercise more supervision over the liberated Africans, by having a larger Government establishment to some extent, and a better class of people employed.

6671. Chairman.] Have any other settlements given facilities to the slave trade besides Sierra Leone?—Not directly, to my knowledge; the trade of the Gambia is principally with Bissao, and at Bissao there is a great slave trade, and legitimate trade, or rather produce trade going on hand-in-hand together; the merchants of Bissao purchase quantities of slaves and quantities of produce; and again, goods supplied by the merchants at the Gambia are paid for in produce and in money; those goods, undoubtedly, are more or less used by the slave dealers in the slave trade.

6672. Sir R. H. Inglis.] The case to which you referred as within your own knowledge, of a person detained in the Gallinas as a slave, taken from Sierra Leone, was the case forming a subject of the Parliamentary Papers of the year 1841?—No; another case; that was a case where she had gone voluntarily into the country, and been detained.

6673. Mr. Aldam.] How many white people would be necessary to manage the establishment on the island of Bulama?—I do not see the absolute necessity of one white person, unless it be the officer commanding the detachment; but at the utmost, three or four, independently of those who chose voluntarily to settle in order to trade.

6674. Mr. Forster.] You appear to entertain a doubt whether the British settlements already on the coast have rendered as much service as they might have done for the suppression of the slave trade?—I spoke more particularly of Sierra Leone; at the same time, the connexion of the Gambia trade with the slave trade is a fact that there is no doubt about.

6675. Sir T. D. Acland.] Do you also include the settlements on the Gold Coast?—I have no knowledge of the Gold Coast settlements.

6676. Then your remark does not apply to them?—No.

6677. Mr. Forster.] When you speak in terms of disapproval of the transactions which you say have taken place between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas, do you wish the Committee to understand that you would recommend that the intercourse between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas should be put a stop to?—There is now no intercourse whatever between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas, and there has not been any for the last few years; I speak of former years.

6678. Would you think it desirable that there should be a commercial intercourse between Sierra Leone and the Gallinas?—Undoubtedly I think a commercial intercourse is the only means of eradicating the slave trade; it is the best auxiliary of the cruizers.

6679. And your opinion would be the same with respect to the intercourse between the Gambia and Bissao, that it is desirable that commercial intercourse should be continued and extended if possible between those two places?—Yes, and that it should be separated as much as possible from the slave trade.

6680. Chairman.] How do you distinguish the lawful from the unlawful trade carried on in a place where both are going on together?—It is almost impossible to distinguish them; for instance, at Bissao the principal slave dealer is also the principal produce dealer, Caetano or Kyetan Nossolino, with whom all the merchants at the Gambia have dealings; in my opinion, that is not a very beneficial trade, because it is not a direct trade with the natives at all; it is a trade between the slave dealer and the British merchants; he buys produce, with which he procures slaves; his principal trade is the slave trade, and he derives great advantages from his commerce with the Gambia in his slave trade.

6681. Would he not have the same facilities of getting the goods necessary for the slave trade from other sources?—He would not have the same facility; it would be much more difficult for him to get it from any other quarter, I apprehend.

6682. Mr. Forster.] Do you mean that it would be difficult, supposing the supply from the British settlements at the Gambia were cut off?—I think it would be more difficult.

6683. Chairman.] Could you stop an American or a Hamburgh vessel going in with the same produce?—Certainly not, nor would I stop an English vessel, but I should wish to consider the means by which we might separate the legitimate trade from the slave trade; my opinion is, that the separation would be best effected by the occupation of Bulama, which would put our merchants in a better position to trade themselves direct with the natives.

6684. You consider then that the trade with Bissao is now thrown too much into the hands of one man, who becomes a monopolist of the trade, and who derives advantages from it in carrying on the slave trade, which would not be derived if we had an entrepôt of our own, to which the natives could resort for goods?—I do; instead of the trade passing all through his hands, I would endeavour, by the occupation of such places as Bulama, to create a rival trade between the English merchants and the natives, instead of goods going, as they now do, through the hands of Caetano and other slave dealers.

6685. You would not, by a legislative enactment, endeavour to prevent a communication by British merchants with slave dealers, but you would rather open other means of trade which were less likely to be objectionable in their results, and thus rival the slave dealers?—Where produce trade existed to any extent at all, I would trust to such measures for the separation of the two; but there are some places where there is no produce trade whatever, where, from one year’s end to another, not a single piece of ivory, or a single gallon of palm oil is exported. The Gallinas is a case in point; it is very true that British vessels can supply goods to the Gallinas, but there is, I think, a scandal in our ships supplying goods there, which does infinite harm to our claim on other nations to abolish and make an end of the slave trade.

6686. Mr. Forster.] How would you introduce British trade in produce at the Gallinas unless you encouraged British traders to go there?—The fact is, that wherever the slave trade exists people never turn to legitimate traffic at all, unless the slave trade is insufficient to supply their wants, or until the slave trade is stopped, or at least checked, by forcible means. When the slave trade no longer supplies what they want they are compelled to labour and raise produce, and they are then ready enough to engage in lawful trade; but the goods now brought are as much slave trade almost as the slaves that are exported.

6687. Are you not aware that in some places on the coast the slave trade has been in a great measure, if not entirely, suppressed by the force of commerce alone?—I do not know of any instance; in every case the first step has been the suppression or the check of the slave trade, and then, and not till then, do the natives labour to raise produce.

6688. Have you been to Popo lately?—I have been to Popo; the cruizers at Popo first checked the slave trade, and then the slave dealers preferred Whydah, which is in the neighbourhood, and they have since taken to legitimate trade at Popo.

6689. Are you aware that there was a considerable slave trade formerly from the Rio Nunez?—I am not particularly acquainted with the slave trade that has been carried on from thence; I know that in the year 1835 there was no great amount of slave trade from thence.

6690. You are not then aware that since the establishment of British factories there, the slave trade has entirely disappeared excepting in the way you have referred to, by the visits of Portuguese canoes picking up slaves in the neighbourhood?—I consider that simply produced by the fact of Bissao being a more convenient place; slavers lie there in perfect security under the walls of the Portuguese fort; they prefer bringing their slaves from the Nunez, which they do in great numbers, in canoes to Bissao, to shipping them direct from the Nunez, from whence the passage and the escape is much more difficult than from Bissao.