I understood you to say that you never did, in point of fact, examine the body of a person that died of Cholera Morbus?—I never did; I only conclude, as a matter of science, that such would be the appearance; but I never did, in point of fact, open the body: I only conclude that that would be the sort of inflammation.

Now, as to this decoction of onions, would one taking rabbits smothered in onions be said to be taking a decoction?—The juice of the onions would be conveyed into the stomach: perhaps it would be as well to explain to the Court what is my motive.

(By Mr. Justice Abbott.) We don’t want that: we only want to know whether a decoction be the same as that which would be conveyed by eating boiled onions?—The same fluid would be conveyed into the stomach.

(By Mr. Sergt. Lens.) That is, a decoction of onions?—Yes, Sir.

But the greatest part is drawn off by the preparation?—Some must infallibly remain. The experiment I made was, by cutting an onion into various pieces, and putting it into two wine-glassesful of water, and upon that decoction my experiment proceeded—or by pouring boiling water over it, or boiling it for two minutes, and then I tried the experiment both with the liquid and with the boiled onion, and the effects were the same.

So that the small quantity that remained in the one case, had the same effect as the extract in the other?—Yes, Sir.

That which is used at table must be considerably weaker than that sort of preparation?—A considerable part, but not the whole, otherwise the flavour would be all gone.

(By Mr. Justice Abbott.) In proportion as the strength and flavour is diminished, so is the strength of the juice diminished?—Yes, my Lord.

(By Mr. Sergt. Lens.) Do you mean to say that that mode [the test by evaporation] is absolutely an infallible mode of detecting arsenic?—I speak by the practice of all physicians, both at home and abroad, that it will be positively detected by that mode to be present; but I don’t mean to say that Dr. Edwards’s experiment won’t do it also; but the phosphate of soda will produce the same thing.

Of course, if necessary to inquire as to the fact of its presence, whether it be pursued by one or the other of these modes, you would inquire into collateral circumstances?—Certainly; but if you speak chemically, I should conceive none decisive, without the reproduction of the metal.

In your judgment, this is the best test that can be resorted to?—I don’t speak from my own judgment merely, but from acknowledged experiments.

Is there any considerable portion of the phosphate of soda in the bile?—Phosphoric acid exists in all the fluids of the human body, in the blood and other fluids; I cannot say to what degree it may exist, but it certainly does exist in these, and in the bodies of all animals.

Does it exist to such a degree in the human bile, as to produce this effect?—I have not made the experiment.

You have not made any experiment, either in one way or another?—It is necessary that I should mention that a French chemist, named Denard, has published on this subject.

Mr. Justice Abbott.—We cannot take the fact from any publication; we cannot take the fact as related by any stranger.

(By Mr. Sergt. Pell, through Mr. Justice Abbott.) I wish to know whether Dr. Neale, in the course of his practice, has opened many bodies, the stomachs of which were in a state of inflammation?—I have, a great many.

Were those appearances the same as described by Dr. Edwards?—They were; I have seen many instances where they were the same as described by Dr. Edwards.

And that in cases in which there was no reason to suppose that there was poison administered?—No reason whatever, my Lord.

Were you ever present at the opening of the body of a person who was supposed to have died by poison?—I was many years ago, when I was in Scotland, and when I was a young man; but the appearances were not such as to satisfy the medical men that there was arsenic.

Is there any other substance, except this phosphate of soda, that will throw down this yellow precipitate?—Not that I am aware of.

Sulphate of copper was not an infallible test, you say; explain that?—If sulphate of copper be contaminated with iron, or be not pure; if it be mixed with the carbonate of potash in solution, a yellow precipitate would be produced, and the two colours will produce green. I should also state that in mixing the solution, if the sulphate of copper should be added to a decoction or an infusion of onions, with a small quantity of the carbonate of potash, a green precipitate is also produced; I have tried it repeatedly.

Supposing a person to have been eating boiled onions for dinner, and in the course of the night to have been vomiting or purging to a violent degree, would any particular portion of the juice of the onion be left in the stomach?—Not in the stomach in a great proportion; but I think that enough may remain to affect the chemical test.

Notwithstanding the mixture of the onions with other food, there is sufficient to effect that in some degree?—Yes, my Lord.

(By Mr. Sergt. Lens, through Mr. Justice Abbott.) You have stated that you have seen many bodies opened, in which the stomach was in a state of inflammation, and in the state described by Dr. Edwards, and yet no actual poison present in those cases; what has been the state of the villous coat of the stomach in such cases; have you attended to that?—No, I have not.

Then you have only observed as to the inflammation and so on, but not to the villous coat of the stomach?—Exactly so, my Lord, and not to the villous coat of the stomach.

You have been for many years a physician at Exeter?—Yes, Sir.

And of considerable practice there?—Yes, Sir.

Have you in your course of practice attended many persons attacked with Cholera Morbus?—I have.

What are the symptoms attendant upon that disorder?—Usually considerable vomiting, affections of the bowels, purging, pains of the stomach, great thirst, and cramps or spasms of the legs.

Where you find a patient violently attacked by those symptoms, what would be the medicines you would administer—I should undoubtedly direct full doses of opium, to remove the irritation, and to check the discharge.

If you found a patient with a frequent and fluttering pulse, should you so administer?—Most undoubtedly.

Have you heard the symptoms which Mrs. Downing is described to have had the evening before her death?—Yes, Sir.

May I ask you whether those be the symptoms of Cholera Morbus?—They certainly are the symptoms of Cholera Morbus.

Are these the symptoms of Cholera Morbus exclusively—No, Sir; they are symptoms of arsenic, or any poison.

(By Mr. Justice Abbott.) Within what period of time does Cholera Morbus usually produce death?—Within my experience, I have seen it nearly fatal within fourteen hours.

Within what time have you known it fatal?—I have never known it fatal: I have known a patient in imminent danger within fourteen hours, but he recovered.

In what way does that disease usually shew itself? does it begin all at once, when the person is in good health, or gradually?—I have known it rather sudden, after an illness of an hour or two.

Have you ever known an instance of a person in good health, eating a hearty dinner, and then sitting down to tea, taken instantly with vomiting and purging in that way described?—I have seen a case very similar to that.

When you say very similar, will you be good enough to explain that a little more?—It occurred in my practice eight years ago, to see a gentleman who was seized with sickness and nausea about five or six o’clock in the afternoon; the sickness and nausea continued increasing till one or two in the morning, and I was desired to see him; and from two to four o’clock I considered him in such danger that I had no hopes.

That does not apply to my difficulty; I want to know what the state of health of that patient would be—that is, whether he would be troubled with a languor or illness, which a person does not very well understand; or whether that person would be, just before his being so seized with it, in perfect good health?—That gentleman whom I mentioned had been delicate in his health, but had had no positive complaints.

Cholera Morbus proceeds from bile?—From bile and corrupt humours.

Will they collect all at once?—They will shew themselves collectively within a very short period of time.

(By Mr. Gifford.) I believe you knew the prisoner at the bar, when attending the Hospital at Exeter?—Yes, Sir.

Had you an opportunity of seeing him frequently?—Occasionally.

Did you know his character for humanity and tenderness?—He always appeared to me to have rather an unusual share of humanity and tenderness; and such was the character which he held in the Institution.

You are a surgeon living at Exeter.—I am.

And a member of the Royal College of Surgeons?—Yes, I am.

You have heard the symptoms and circumstances first described by Dr. Edwards and Mr. Street?—Yes.

From the different facts which both those gentlemen have spoken to, as to the state of the stomach of the deceased when opened, what disorder should you have supposed that person to have died of?—From some inflammation in the stomach.

What disorder of the human frame, in your judgment, would be likely to produce such appearances?—Hernia, Cholera Morbus, and idiopathic inflammations, or inflammations from unknown causes; that is, when we find those appearances of the stomach where we can assign no causes.

Now supposing a person to have had violent retchings and purgings, accompanied with a pain in the stomach, and accompanied with such appearances as these in the stomach, if the body had been opened to what causes would you attribute it?—To Cholera Morbus, if I had not detected Hernia.

(By Mr. Justice Abbott.) You mean to say that if you had found the stomach in the state described by Dr. Edwards, you would ascribe that to Cholera Morbus?—Yes, my Lord.

(By Mr. Sergt. Pell.) You have heard it stated in evidence what the plan was that Mr. Donnall pursued, when he administered medicine to Mrs. Downing that night?—I have, Sir.

Was that the right or the wrong one?—It was partly right, and partly wrong.

In what respect was it right?—In the exhibition of opium.

In what respect was it wrong?—In giving any thing that would increase the irritation that already existed.

Have you seen the prescription which Dr. Edwards wrote that night?—No, I have not; but I would wish to see it—(here the prescription alluded to was shewn to the witness).

Now supposing a person to have retchings and purgings for several hours, and that you found these attended with frequent and fluttering pulse, in that state of the illness what should you have prescribed?—I should have prescribed diametrically opposite to the prescription of Dr. Edwards; I should consider that prescribed by Dr. Edwards as adding weight to a porter’s back.

Mr. Justice Abbott (to the witness)—Don’t speak metaphorically; you are speaking just now of a gentleman of experience and respectability: I don’t wish you to conceal your opinion, but only to speak it in different language.

(By Mr. Sergt. Pell.) You should have pursued a method diametrically opposite you say; now what is the course pursued by that prescription?—There was irritation already existing in the bowels, and that prescription, I conceive, would tend to increase that irritation.

Besides tending to increase the irritation, in your judgment what other effect would be produced by it, in that state of the person?—There was considerable debility or exhaustion, and I should think that would increase that debility and exhaustion.

What should you have given?—I should have supported the patient, and given opium in large doses.

Have you had an opportunity of examining many bodies after death?—A great many.

I will ask you, did it ever in the course of your practice happen to you to examine a body that had died of Cholera Morbus?—I attended a patient, but I can state the reasons why I did not do so.

Don’t state the reasons why you did not. Then you never did open any body that had died of Cholera Morbus?—Never.

You have opened bodies after death?—Yes, Sir, a great many.

In cases of mere accident, where death has been produced by violent injury arising from accident, have you ever had occasion to ascertain the state of such a body as that?—I have.

How long ago?—Eight or nine years ago.

What was the accident that occasioned the death?—A fractured skull.

How long after the death was the body opened?—It was either upon the second or the third day.

What was the state of the stomach of that person?—Highly vascular, which would lead any one unaccustomed to the complaint, to mistake it as arising from inflammation.

Now explain what you mean by the terms ‘highly vascular’?—The congestion of numerous blood-vessels.

Is there any thing as to the state of the hardness or softness of the coats of the stomach, upon which any judgment can rest?—I should suspect that as it is inflamed, the coats of the stomach would be thickened and soft; for as the inflammation takes place, the parts increase in size.

Have you examined the bodies of soldiers, or of any description of persons, who have died of that complaint?—Yes, I have.

What would be the state, with respect to inflammatory appearances in the stomach, of those subjects?—We generally find the coats of the stomach red and thick; we very often, but not always, find it where there is no reason whatever to suspect inflammation.

Have you applied yourself to the study of chemistry very much?—Not very much; but I have attended chemical lectures.

Do you happen to know whether the chemical test through the medium of nitrate of silver, or lunar caustic, is an infallible one or not, as to shewing the presence of arsenic in solution?—I conceive it not to be so.

Do you recollect who it was that first proved this test?—I don’t know who it was that proved it first; but the first time I ever saw it described was in a medical publication by Dr. Marcet, lecturer in Guy’s Hospital.

Do you happen to know whether there be any thing else, besides arsenic, which, if submitted to the lunar caustic, would produce the same result as it would with arsenic?—I do.

What else?—If there be any alkaline phosphate, it would put on the same appearance, and throw down the same yellow precipitate.

Do you know whether phosphoric acid and salts be contained, or abound in the human frame?—I have been led to believe so.

Did you hear Dr. Edwards give his evidence as to the test also of the sulphate of copper?—I did.

Have you made any experiments as to the sulphate of copper?—I have.

We have been told that the sulphate of copper, when added to any liquid or fluid containing arsenic, will throw down a green precipitate?—Yes, it will have that effect; and I have made that experiment.

Have you made any experiment in order to ascertain whether any green precipitate would be thrown down by sulphate of copper, when applied to any other solution than that of arsenic?—I have tried it with an infusion of onions and animal matter.

(By Mr. Justice Abbott.) What was the result?—A green precipitate resembling that which would have been thrown down, if arsenic had been present.

Did you happen to attend when Dr. Edwards was the chemical lecturer at St. Bartholomew’s Hospital, in London?—I was a student in the Borough, at St. Thomas’s and Guy’s.

Then you did not attend yourself, when Dr. Edwards was the chemical lecturer at St. Bartholomew’s?—No, I did not.

Do we understand that you made those experiments previous, or since this circumstance happened?—Both previous to, and since this melancholy circumstance; and particularly that with the nitrate of silver; and I thought it one of the most delicate at the time I made it.

(By Mr. Justice Abbott.) That is the lunar caustic?—Yes, my Lord. When I first made the experiment, about three years ago, I found it the most delicate test of arsenic.

What do you mean by the most delicate test of arsenic?—That is, the smallest portion would be detected by it.

(By Mr. Sergt. Lens.) You found that at first?—Yes, but I have since discovered its fallacy; and it was pointed out by the same means which discovered its delicacy as a test, because it is now ascertained that something else will produce the same appearances.

You have mentioned what?—Yes, any alkaline phosphates.

I believe you are a physician at Plymouth?—I am.

You have been present during the course of this trial, and have heard the examination of Dr. Edwards?—I have.

You have accordingly heard the tests that he applied to the contents of the stomach of Mrs. Downing?—I have, Sir.

Now I would ask you whether, in your judgment and experience, those tests be or be not conclusive?—I am satisfied that they are not.

When I ask you whether or not they be conclusive, I mean as to the existence of arsenic?—I am certain they are not, and that they do not unequivocally shew the existence of arsenic.

Do the same results follow from experiments from other compounds?—They do.

What, in your judgment, is the proper test by which the presence of arsenic would be discovered?—I am borne out by all philosophical chemists in this country, in stating that the only test that can bear a man out in swearing to its presence is, the reproduction of the metal; I mean the arsenic in its metallic state.

In the other tests is the colour of the precipitate the only thing by which to judge that arsenic is present?—In what tests?

The sulphate of copper for instance?—Unless it were mixed with some carbonaceous matter, and submitted to the action of heat: where that has not been done, it is the colour only that has been relied on.

Have you heard the appearances of the stomach as described by Dr. Edwards?—I have.

Do those appearances, in your judgment, indicate the presence of arsenic in the stomach?—Although I should not have drawn the conclusion that that body had therein received poison, I certainly should have allowed such a reflection to enter into my mind, and have acted upon it; yet I by no means think (and I speak from the experience of others), that the appearances stated to have existed were such as only to denote the presence of arsenic.

Have you known the prisoner at the bar long?—Yes, Sir.

How long?—I only knew him at school; we were educated together at the Exeter Free Grammar-school.

At that time, what was his character for humanity?—It would be difficult to say what attaches one school-boy to another; but I can say conscientiously——

That is not the question. What was his character as a school-boy?—That is a question which is difficult to answer—not that I mean to imply that there was any thing to the contrary of a good character, for I mean to say that he stood high—he was respected by his school-fellows. We slept together in the same dormitary; and I remember now with pleasure, notwithstanding the time that has transpired, the intimacy that then existed.

You said that nothing but the reproduction of the arsenic would satisfy your mind as to the presence of it?—It would not; and I am borne out in that belief by the best authorities in the country; nothing short of that would satisfy my mind in swearing to its presence.

(By Mr. Justice Abbott.) You said that the same results would follow from other compounds?—Yes, my Lord.

What other compounds would give the same result with the lunar caustic?—Phosphoric acid.

And what with the sulphate of copper?—Understanding that the deceased had died after eating a hearty dinner of rabbits and onions, I cut a large onion into slices, and took a slice of raw meat, and put them into the same vessel, and poured rather more than a pint of warm water upon the mixture, with the view of making an infusion; I allowed it to infuse for some hours; I then took a quantity of the liquid or infusion so prepared, and I applied to it the same tests:—first, the sub-carbonate of potash in solution, I then added the sulphate of copper in solution, the two tests which I understood Dr. Edwards had used.

And what was the effect produced?—A green precipitate was instantly formed.

Was that experiment then complete?—It was, my Lord.

Any thing else?—Yes, my Lord; with another portion of the liquor I tried this other experiment;—I put in some sub-carbonate of potash in solution, I then added the sub-nitrate of silver, or lunar caustic, and a yellow precipitate was produced.

Is there any thing farther you would wish to say as to those experiments?—Yes, my Lord; I used the same tests as I understood Dr. Edwards had used.

You are the Surgeon of the Exeter Hospital?—Yes, Sir.

How long have you been in that situation?—For fifteen or sixteen years.

During the course of that time, you have had an opportunity of examining many bodies?—I have.

Have you heard Dr. Edwards give his evidence to-day?—I have.

From the account which he has given, what would be your judgment as to the cause of that death, it being added that the person who died had violent retchings and purgings?—I should consider that those violent retchings and purgings had exhausted her, and had caused the death.

Putting out of your view those violent affections of the stomach, could you account for the cause of the inflammation?—I could not, unless from discovering some poison in the coats of the stomach at the time.

Have you known, in the course of your practice, many instances of Cholera Morbus?—I have known a great many.

What do you consider to be the immediate cause of Cholera Morbus?—A redundancy of bile and humours upon the stomach.

If inflammation be found upon the stomach after it is opened, what appearance would it put on?—The internal coats of the stomach would be very red in various parts, and the colour very florid; but in the course of two or three days it would become more dark.

That is, it would have a stellated appearance?—I never opened the body of a person who had died of Cholera Morbus.