Are you not of opinion that the immense weights carried by the broad-wheeled waggons, even by their perpendicular pressure, do injury by crushing the materials?—On a new-made road the crush would do mischief, but on a consolidated old road the mere perpendicular pressure does not do any. But there is a great deal of injury done by the conical form of the broad wheels, which operate like sledging instead of turning fairly. There is a sixteen-inch wheel waggon which comes out of Bristol, that does more injury to our roads than all the travelling of the day besides.
Are you of opinion that any benefit arises from those broad-wheeled waggons, which would justify their total exemption from tolls?—None at all.
Does the answer you have given to the Committee relative to the effect of great weights, apply equally to roads made with gravel, as well as broken stone?—I mean it to apply to all well-made roads, whether of gravel or of other materials.
You mean after the road is smooth and solid?—Yes.
But with regard to a new road, are you not of opinion that the materials are crushed and worn out by a great weight?—Yes; no doubt that is so on a new-made road, and one of those waggons with the wheels made conical, would crush a greater proportion of stone than it ought to do.
Do you not conceive that the state of the turnpike roads would be improved by not allowing any waggons to carry more weight than four ton?—I don’t know that that would make any great difference, under good management. I think the defect lies in a want of science in road-making.
Martis, 9° die Martii, 1819.
John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
In your evidence last week, you stated that less improvement had taken place in the roads in the neighbourhood of London than in any other district, to what causes do you attribute this circumstance?—I consider the principal cause to be the small extent of the trusts, and the peculiar situation of London, which increases the bad effects of the division into very small trusts.
What are the particulars of the situation to which you allude?—The situation of most of the roads near London is very low, difficult to be kept free from water, the traffic is very great both in weight and number, and therefore requiring more skill, as well as more care and attention, than the other roads of the kingdom; the material found near London for making the roads is gravel of a very bad quality, it is mixed with an adhesive loam that cannot be separated from the gravel, except by the united power of water and friction; this operation cannot be effectually performed before laying it on the roads, but is done by the rain and the traffic, producing a stiff mud, which is not only in itself an impediment to travelling, but has the effect of keeping the roads loose; the form of the gravel is also unfavorable, being smooth round masses of flint, without any angles by which the parts might unite. On the other hand, London is placed in a situation peculiarly convenient for being supplied with materials from a distance, by water carriage. The materials that may be so procured are of the very best description, and, under the sanction of parliament, may be procured on very moderate terms. The Thames furnishes gravel of a very good quality and quite clean; by using this gravel, the navigation of the river will be improved; the several canals, the Surrey, the Grand Junction, Paddington, and river Lea navigation, present facilities for procuring clean flint of the best kind; the coast of Essex, Kent, and Sussex, can furnish a supply to any extent of beach pebbles, one of the best road materials in the kingdom. Granite chippings might be obtained occasionally from Cornwall, Guernsey and Scotland, as ballast; two pieces of road were made with these materials near London, without any mixture of land gravel, at Blackfriars Bridge and Westminster Bridge.
What are the impediments which, in your opinion, prevent the commissioners of the roads near London from availing themselves of those advantages?—The very small trusts into which the roads in the immediate vicinity of London are divided, is the principal cause; this renders it impossible for commissioners to enter upon the plan of procuring materials upon an extended scale, and they cannot be obtained with any regard to economy, except in quantity, with a view to a supply for the whole roads, proceeding from the stones of London to a certain distance. There are also some impediments arising from particular laws, regulations and customs, which can only be removed by parliament. The Ballast Act gives a right of pre-emption to the Trinity House of all stone and other materials brought as ballast into the Thames. The coasting duty on stone operates as a prohibition to the importation of stone as merchandize; the amount of canal duties payable on merchandize prevents the carriage of road materials on all inland navigations; manure so transported has been protected in most Canal Acts, but road materials have not been considered. Should parliament be pleased to remove these difficulties, the London roads may be rendered independent of the gravel of the country, by a moderate exertion of statistical and mercantile information on the part of the officers employed by the commissioners.
If the Committee understand you right, you give a decided preference to materials thus imported, over the gravel to be found in the neighbourhood of London?—I do.
Is it your opinion, that by proper regulations a sufficient supply of those materials to which you have alluded, could be procured for the whole of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—Yes, I think there might; because a steady and constant demand, even at a low price, would insure importation, and this demand can only be steady if the roads round London were consolidated under one set of commissioners acting for the whole, and having depôts into which they could receive materials at all times at a fixed price, to be distributed wherever wanted, by an assurance of a ready purchaser; vessels coming in ballast, or not fully loaded, from any place where good road materials were to be procured, would be induced to take on board sufficient to make up their loading; contracts could also be made for flint by the various canals, and upon terms more moderate than the present price of gravel; I am unable to lay before the Committee a detailed plan for supplying the London roads with good and cheap materials, which requires a considerable time and attention in the inquiry.
Is there any other information connected with the improvement of the roads in the neighbourhood of London, which you think you could give to the Committee?—I am quite satisfied that the materials to be imported into London would make good roads, because I made two pieces of very excellent road with those materials at the two bridges, without making use of any gravel of the country.
At what time was this done?—The pieces of road were made in August and September 1817.
What was the extent?—There were about 200 yards of the one, and about 180 yards of the other; one of them joins the iron pavement at the foot of Blackfriars bridge; and the other joins the Marsh-gate turnpike, and goes to the Asylum; those roads were made with river-gravel and pebbles from the coast.
From whence did you get the river-gravel?—It was purchased from the steam-engines that raise it in the river.
Did you lift the old road?—I took up all the stones that were in them that were good for any thing, the flints and other stones, and then made use of a considerable quantity of additional materials to make the surface of the road afterwards.
Was the expense considerable?—There was no account kept of the expense of the experiment at Westminster bridge, because the commissioners wished me to employ a number of paupers and persons that had been on the road before, without discharging them, who were very indifferent hands; and they also wished that the road should be very considerably above the level than I thought necessary, and that brought much more materials than otherwise need have been put on; but the Blackfriars bridge experiment cost about seven-pence halfpenny per square yard; there was a very correct account kept of it, including the price of materials and labour, and every thing.
Could you state what that would amount to for a mile?—That would depend upon the breadth of the road.
At what rate per mile would be the expense of such an improvement, supposing the road thirty feet wide?—About 528l. or 530l.
Is not a road constructed with a roadway of sixteen feet breadth of solid materials, and with six feet on each side of that with slighter materials, a sufficient road for the general purposes of country travelling?—Yes; and generally the roads round Bristol are made with stone, about the breadth of sixteen feet.
In your former answer respecting materials, you made use generally of the term roads “round London,” to what extent did you mean to convey the idea of that improvement?—I should think that the river, and the facility of the canals, might in all places allow you to carry the improvement ten miles round London; and perhaps where the canals or rail-ways come through the country, you might carry the improvement farther.
Has not the system of road management at present practised, the effect of repressing efforts for acquiring skill and exertions of science, as connected with the business of road-making?—I think it has.
Will you explain in what way?—Because the surveyors at present appointed are not required to have any particular skill in their business before they are appointed; but the appointment generally takes place to provide for some person a situation; and the want of superior officers over the sub-surveyors is the means of preventing those sub-surveyors from acquiring a knowledge necessary to execute their duties under an officer who would know whether they were able to execute them or not.
You mean that there is a not a sufficient degree of inspection and control provided by the legislature over the conduct of the surveyor of the roads?—I think so.
Do you conceive that a more scientific system of management of roads is wanted universally?—I do.
Do not you conceive that the want of this scientific system leads to a great waste of public money?—I think it leads to a great waste of public money.
And also to a great waste of property in horses and carriages?—I think it does.
Has any estimate ever been made of the extent of that loss?—There can be no accurate estimate of a loss so universal as that of the waste of horses and carriages by bad roads; but the Committee of 1811 estimated the saving which would be made to the country by putting the roads in a proper state of repair, at a sum equal to five millions annually.
What remedy would you propose to cure the defects of the general system of road management?—My opinion is, that the only cure would be to have people of a better station of life placed over them in the direction of this business; that each county or large district in the country ought to have an officer in the character of a gentleman, to oversee the surveyors of the district; not only to direct them what to do, but to see that the work is judiciously and honestly executed; and I think a very small proportion of the sum now wasted by bad management would pay for such an establishment.
Would you alter the trusts?—That would be a great advantage, if the trusts could be consolidated; but there are objections to that, and very serious objections.
Local objections?—Yes, such as the debt upon each trust.
Do you propose the appointment of those overseers to be with the present commissioners of the roads?—Certainly.
Do you propose any general inspection to be established over the whole system of road-making?—I should think it a public advantage if there was some inspection or controlling power in some quarter or other, to prevent the general surveyors from being improperly appointed; but whether that controlling power should emanate from the government, or the authorities in the county, I am not a judge.
Do you think a controlling power established in the metropolis, to communicate on the subject throughout the kingdom, would be an advantageous establishment?—I think it would be a very profitable and desirable establishment.
Looking to the revenues and to practical advantages?—Looking to the revenues, practical advantages, and to the dissemination of information.
Would you propose their having a power of suspending officers in certain cases?—Certainly, till the pleasure of the commissioners was known; on any gross instance of misconduct or negligence.
Would not you propose they should report occasionally the state and condition of the roads, and also the state of the finances of each trust?—I should think the state of the finances ought to be reported in some way every year, that they might reach parliament, either by counties, or by some means the least expensive and least troublesome; and I think such a report of the finances, annually, would be a great means of preventing mis-application of the public funds; and it would create a comparison between one part of the country and another, that would be useful in checking misconduct.
Then you do not think there is, at present, a sufficient protection of the road revenue of the kingdom against dishonest or ignorant practices?—I think the road revenue is less protected than any other part of the public expenditure; and, though it is very large, it may be considered, I think, almost unprotected, under the present system of law.
Have you any loose guess in your own mind, as to the extent of the revenue throughout the kingdom, raised for the purpose of maintaining roads?—I have been led to guess a million and a quarter a year, as the toll revenue; from the circumstance of there being five-and-twenty thousand miles of turnpike road in England and Wales.
That is an increasing revenue?—It is certainly increasing very much; I think the revenue has been increased by the increase of travelling, and particularly stage-coaches.
Has not it been the practice to augment the tolls considerably in all recent turnpike acts?—In the three sessions of parliament preceding the present, I think, there were about ninety petitions to parliament for a renewal of acts, and an increase of their tolls, because they were in a state that they could not pay their debts without the assistance of parliament.
Does not the great expense attending the renewal of acts of parliament, contribute very much to restrain a proper improvement of the roads in the kingdom?—The expense of renewing so many acts of parliament, as is occasioned by the great division of trusts in the country, certainly absorbs a very great sum of the road revenue of the kingdom; because those acts are every one of them renewed every twenty-one years, and frequently circumstances oblige the trustees to come oftener to parliament.
Do you happen to know whether there have been any steps taken by the Post-office, with a view to forming some general arrangement with regard to the roads?—I am not acquainted with any. I have had repeated conversations with lord Chichester, the postmaster-general, and he has asked for all the information I could give his lordship; and, of course, I have given the information pretty much in the manner I have had the honour to do to this Committee; and, I believe, his lordship is satisfied, that the consolidation of trusts would be very useful: and he has used his influence in the county of Sussex to have nine trusts consolidated, for the express purpose of mutual assistance in providing a general surveyor.
Do you know the result?—I gave the result, and a copy of the resolutions of the county, at the last meeting.
Do you know the result as to the expenditure?—Yes, it goes to that as well as to the amendment of the roads.
Supposing any insuperable difficulty to exist in placing the management of the roads of the kingdom under a board of management, do you not consider that very great advantage would arise from consolidating the different trusts round London, and placing them under an unity of superintendence and regulation?—Certainly so; I think that that would be a measure of the greatest use in the world; and I think that no palliative, no other means whatever can be devised to get the London roads improved, except consolidating the trusts under one head, or one set of commissioners, or some body that shall control the whole; consolidating the roads round London, would be the means probably of great amelioration in the system or manner of mending the roads, and that would serve as an example to other parts of the country, and might be the means of extending improvement in the mode of road-making, and would form a sort of school or example to other parts of the country.
Do you think, upon the same principle that you recommend consolidating trusts round London, it would be advisable that powers should be given to consolidate trusts in different parts of the kingdom?—I should think it very advisable that powers were granted by parliament to such trusts as chose to do it, to consolidate themselves into one body for the purpose of having a better superintendence, or for any other purposes of general improvement; but upon considering the matter very fully, I am of opinion that it would be more profitable that the Legislature should give leave to trusts than that they should make it imperative upon them; it will be absolutely necessary, before any such measure could come into effect, that parliament should not only give this leave, but that they should make the proceedings of the general meeting of those trusts legal, which at present they would not be as the law stands; the nine trusts in Sussex, who have now voluntarily associated together, hold what is considered a general meeting of those trusts; but I by no means think that their proceedings are legal, as the law now stands.
In many cases where the consolidation would be beneficial, do not you consider it would be resisted from local motives?—Perhaps it might be resisted; it will be unfortunate when that happens to be the case, but when the good effects of it begin to be seen in the country, I think those objections would be got rid of.
Do you believe that the first effects of such consolidation would be a diminution of expense?—I am quite certain of that.
How is that diminution of expense to arise?—By introducing a much better mode of management, it would occasion more regularity in the mode of keeping accounts, it would introduce a diminution of expense materially in horse labour, and in various other things; that I think, upon the whole, the diminution of expense by such regulation would be found very great indeed.
Do not you believe that the present system of maintaining roads is the means of a continued increase of expense in the debt and tolls throughout the kingdom?—I think the debt is increasing very much throughout the kingdom and that the debt is perhaps greater than gentlemen in parliament are aware of; at present tolls are increasing.
Do you consider that there is a corresponding improvement in the roads, in proportion to the increase of the tolls and debts?—By no means; my belief is, that where the greatest expense is, there the worst management is, or rather, that the worst management produces the greatest expense.
Then, in your opinion, a great improvement might be effected on the roads in general, which might be accompanied in the end by a gradual diminution of debt and tolls?—Certainly, I think so.
Can you give any information as to the total amount of general debt on the roads now existing in England and Wales? After inquiring by all the means that an unauthorized individual could do in different parts of the country, and ascertaining, as nearly as I could, the amount of debt upon a great number of trusts; I have been inclined to believe that the debt at present amounts to about seven millions in England and Wales.
Are you of opinion that any considerable advantage might be derived in the management of the roads, by a commutation for the statute labour?—Yes; I think very great advantage would be derived by the public, if the statute labour were commuted for money, and that, if it were commuted at a very low rate; if it were one half of the real value of the work, I should think, the roads would be more benefited by it in general through the country.
Is it the general practice in Scotland, under any act of parliament, to commute statute labour for money?—All the acts of parliament I am acquainted with in Scotland, have commuted it; one in the county I belong to, commuted it twenty years ago with very great advantage.
You have mentioned that the commissioners of the Westminster bridge road required you to employ a considerable number of paupers; the Committee wish to know whether it is the general practice, in your observation, to employ paupers upon roads?—I have always found that in every place where the improvement of the roads has been commenced, under any advice given by me, it has been desired very much by the inhabitants that the people unemployed (not, perhaps, paupers that generally receive parish relief, but those people who come to ask for relief, because they cannot get work) should be employed on the road; and it has been very much my wish to gratify that desire by giving them work, not by the day, but by the piece, because that has generally put them off the parishes; the moment they get work to do, by which they can get their bread, and without which they cannot get their bread, they quit the parish.
Is it not the practice, in trusts where you have not been concerned, to employ paupers, or very old labourers?—I have found in all the trusts that have sent to me to take advice, that the labourers have been a great number of them very inefficient men; and the excuse generally given for that is, that those people would come to the parish if they were not sent to the roads.
Is the pay of those men proportionably low with their abilities to work?—I have not found that to be the case. I have found that those poor, miserable men, who can do very little, have been getting considerable wages, and in that way a considerable sum has been wasted.
In point of practice, then, the road revenue is made to act as a poor fund?—Precisely so; I think the road revenue has gone to the assistance of the poor in that way.
In your experience have you found that the common mode of employing paupers by day-work, is inefficient both to the improvement of the roads and to the object of relieving the parishes?—It may have the effect of relieving the parishes, but I should think it a very bad mode of mending the roads; inasmuch as these men, when they have got day-wages, will do very little, and for that reason I employ all our men on piece-work; we have two hundred and eighty labourers in the district of Bristol, and they are almost all on piece-work; it is very seldom we employ men by the day. I was directed by the Committee, at their last meeting, to produce some more detailed accounts respecting the Bristol district: in obedience to that order, I have obtained the report made by me at the end of the first and second year of my administration, which I beg to submit to the Committee, together with the resolution of the commissioners thereon.
[The following Papers were delivered in, and read:]
Expenditure on the Bristol Roads.
| In the year 1815, previous to the alteration of management, there was paid | £. 14,285 2 1 | |
| An unpaid floating debt of | 1,400 0 0 | |
| Total expense of 1815, to 25th March 1816 | £. 15,685 2 1 | |
| ============= |
Alteration of management, commenced 16th January, 1816.
| In 1816, outlay was | £.16,127 5 1 | ||
| Deduct accounts of 1815 | £.1,400 | ||
| Paid into 5 per cent. fund, about | 340 | ||
| 1,740 0 0 | |||
| Total expense of roads, to March 1817 | £.14,387 5 1 | ||
| ============= | |||
| In 1817, outlay was | £.15,830 4 11 | ||
| Of which, permanent improvements cost | £.1,500 | ||
| Paid to 5 per cent. fund, about | 200 | ||
| Paid for a general survey and plans | 340 | ||
| Whitchurch Bridge repairs | 320 | ||
| 2,360 0 0 | |||
| Total expenditure for roads, to 25 March 1818 | £.13,470 4 11 | ||
| ============= |
Bristol Turnpikes.
Report of Mr. John Loudon MᶜAdam, to a General Meeting of Commissioners, 2d June 1817.
Since I had the honour of reporting to the meeting of commissioners on the 2d of March last, the amendment of the roads has proceeded with success, and at present there are no parts of the roads of the Bristol district in a bad state.
Much has been done in partial improvements, which have altogether amounted to a considerable sum, although not of sufficient magnitude individually to come within the scope of the regulations of the general meeting, that restrain improvements exceeding 50l. without special order; several such improvements are still necessary, and some of the small bridges require to be lengthened in the arches, in order to lead the roads to them more commodiously, and to widen the roadway on the bridges.
The statement of the income and expenditure of the year, now made up to the 25th March, presents a very satisfactory result.
In the last year, a sum equal to nearly five times that of the preceding year, has been paid into the 5 per cent. fund.
A floating debt, which did not appear in the printed annual account of last year, but which amounted to about 1,400l. has been paid off.
The balances of treasurer’s accounts, which last year showed the trust to be indebted on the whole to the treasurer 356l. are now so much on the other side, that your treasurers have on the whole account a balance in hand of 614l. and this balance is efficient, because the floating debt is now reduced to the smallest sum possible, under the circumstances of a business so extended.
In addition to which, I have to congratulate the commissioners on a reduction of the principal debt in the sum of 729l. 10s. 3d. and that turnpike tickets, which were at a discount, are now in demand at par.
The foregoing is a true copy from the book of proceedings of the trustees of the Bristol turnpike roads.
Bristol Turnpikes.
Report of Mr. John Loudon MᶜAdam, to a General Meeting of Commissioners, 1st June 1818.
Since I had the honour to report to the commissioners, in June 1817, the business of the roads has gone on successfully, and they have been kept in invariably good repair under the present system of management, notwithstanding the roads having been tried by all vicissitudes of the most unfavourable seasons ever known.
Several valuable improvements have also been effected in different parts of the district; the very promising state of the finances having induced the commissioners to employ great part of the savings of their income for that purpose, instead of applying the whole to the liquidation of the principal debt of the trust. This great debt has, however, been diminished nearly 500l. while the sum expended on the permanent improvements considerably exceeds 1,500l.
| £. s. d. | ||
|---|---|---|
| On the 25th March 1818, there was a balance in the hands of each of the treasurers, with exception of the Bitton and Toghill roads; and the balance due to that treasurer has been diminished upon the whole account; there remained in the hands of the treasurers, on the 25th March 1818, the sum of | 1,987 14 5 | |
| In the hands of the general treasurer, from 5 per cent. fund | £.502 5 11 | |
| Due by the Whitchurch road to the 5 per cent. fund, and included in the general debt | 300 0 0 | |
| 802 5 11 | ||
| Balance in hand, 25th March 1818 | £.2,790 0 4 | |
| =========== | ||
It is very gratifying to report to the commissioners this material amelioration of the funds during the present year, when the income of the trust has suffered a diminution of 425l. 5s. occasioned probably by the depression of trade throughout the country.
It is to be regretted that the directions of the general meetings respecting the payments to the 5 per cent. fund have not been more punctually obeyed; but without entering into the circumstances of heavy debt and other difficulties, which have hitherto prevented payments from particular treasurers, I beg leave to call the attention of the commissioners to a consideration of the importance of this fund, and the use to which it may be most advantageously applied.
The fund was instituted for the purpose of giving the general meetings the power of extending aid to any division of the roads of the district that might be in distress. As the favourable state of the funds, arising from the system of management adopted by the commissioners, gives a very reasonable hope that such occasion of distress may never again occur, it may be expedient to consider of the propriety of converting the 5 per cents. into a sinking fund.
By application of such a sum, amounting to about 850l. annually, to the gradual extinction of the debt of the trust, the means of continuing several useful and very desirable improvements will be diminished only in a small proportion, and the amendment of the general state of the roads will proceed, without entirely losing sight of the justice due to the creditors, and the desirable object of reducing a debt of such magnitude.
As it may be doubtful whether under the authority of the present act of parliament the trustees may legally apply the 5 per cent. fund to the purpose of a sinking fund, the committee appointed to prepare the new act may be instructed to consider of this subject, and also for better securing the due payment of the 5 per cent. fund at stated periods, along with the interest of the debt, to the general treasurer.
I have great pleasure in being able to continue to give a favourable report of the conduct of the sub-surveyors.
The foregoing is a true copy from the book of proceedings of the trustees of the Bristol turnpike roads.
Bristol Turnpikes.
At a Meeting of the Trustees for the care of the several roads round the city of Bristol, holden on 7th December 1818, at the Guildhall in Bristol.
Thomas Daniel, Esq. in the Chair.
It appearing that under the triennial appointment of Mr. MᶜAdam, his office of general surveyor will cease on the 16th day of January next;—
Ordered unanimously, That he be again appointed to that office for a further term of three years, at the same salary.
Resolved unanimously, That the thanks of this meeting be given to Mr. MᶜAdam for the zeal and ability with which he has executed the very arduous duties of his office, from which it appears to this meeting that the most important advantages have resulted to the roads under his care.
The foregoing is a true copy from the book of proceedings of the trustees of the Bristol turnpike roads.
Does any part of that saving which is stated to have taken place on those roads, arise from an increase of revenue?—There has been a small increase of revenue, but whether arising from tolls or a better collection of the statute labour, I cannot take upon me to say; but that increase of revenue must be deducted from the saving of 2,700l., which appears in the treasurer’s hands.
Jovis, 11º die Martii, 1819.
John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
Is there any part of your former evidence upon which you wish to give any further explanation to the Committee?—In consequence of the surprise and doubt expressed by some members of this honourable Committee, on that part of my evidence respecting the carrying a road over a morass in Somersetshire, and the proportions of the materials used upon that, and the part of the road with a rocky foundation, which I stated from memory, I thought it proper to write down to the treasurer of that road, to request the favour of him to send for the surveyor, and know the facts exactly from him. The treasurer, Mr. Phippen, who is a magistrate, sent a certificate, signed by the surveyor. There was a certificate, also, signed by Mr. Phippen; and with it there was a letter from Mr. Phippen, of explanation; both of which I wish to put in.
“I do certify that that part of the sixteen miles of the Bristol turnpike road under my care, from Cross, over the marsh lands, towards Bridgewater, is now in the best state I ever knew it, which is wholly owing to having the very large stones laid at the foundation when the road was first made more than fifty years since, lifted and beaten very small. The general strength of the road is from seven inches to nine; and five tons of stones, I have always considered for the repairs of this part of the road equal to seven on the other part over the hills.
“I, Robert Phippen, Esq. one of His Majesty’s justices of the peace for the county of Somerset, and treasurer on the road mentioned in the above certificate, do hereby certify and declare, that the contents are true to the best of my knowledge and belief; and the road in question has been under my constant inspection for five years past; and the surveyor, Edward Whitting, is a person well known to me, and worthy of credit.
“Dated March 9th, 1819.”
“Letter from Robert Phippen, Esq. to John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esq. No. 9, Northumberland-street, Strand, London.
“Dear Sir,
“There cannot, in my opinion, be any necessity to lay the foundation of a road on any ground, even the most soft and peaty, with large stones; daily observation tells me, that this is a great waste of time, materials, and money. I have had, for these five or six years past, a great deal of experience in seeing roads made, one in particular, over a very soft peat bog, by Wedmore and Glastonbury, in this county. At the time this new line of road was proposed to be made, a great difference of opinion existed as to its practicability, and the method to be pursued to accomplish it. Some of the parties were for laying the whole of the road over the bog with brush-wood, on which were to be put large flat stones, and on those smaller ones. We who were the other party, insisted that a more simple, less expensive, and more permanent method was to make it with stones alone, broken very small. We, at last, prevailed, and the system succeeded even beyond our most sanguine expectations; for this part of the road has stood uncommonly well, though the travelling on it has been very great, and with heavy carriages, and the little repairs wanted have been done as an inconsiderable expense, compared to the other part of the road made on hard ground over the hills.
I wish, in reference to the opinion I gave with respect to the statute labour, to state, that I have to transact with sixty-nine parishes, respecting their statute labour, in the counties of Somerset and Gloucester; and that it is in consequence of these transactions, I gave the opinion to the Committee that I had the honour to submit.
What proportion of the statute duty, by pecuniary payments, instead of the mode at present adopted, do you conceive might be saved?—I think, if one third of the present nominal value of the statute labour was to be regularly paid into the hands of the treasurer, that it would be more available to the public roads, than the present manner in which the work is done, and certainly less onerous to the agriculture of the country.
James MᶜAdam, Esq. called in; and Examined.
You are the son of the last witness?—I am.
Have you been employed as a general surveyor upon the turnpike roads?—I have.
Upon what roads have you been employed?—Upon the Epsom and Ewell turnpike roads of twenty-one miles; upon the Reading road of six miles; upon the eastern division of the Egham road, seven miles and a half; on the western division of the Egham road, eight miles and a half; on the Cheshunt turnpike roads, of eighteen miles; upon the Wades-mill turnpike trust of twenty-nine miles; on the old North road, or Royston road, of fifteen miles; upon the Huntingdon road of ten miles; and on the road from Huntingdon to Somersham of ten miles; being together one hundred and twenty-five miles.
How long have you been appointed to them?—My first appointment was in December 1817.
Had you been previously in the habits of making the improvement of turnpike roads your study?—I had at Bristol, under my father’s tuition.
The information you have acquired, I presume, then, has been entirely under your father’s system?—Yes, upon my father’s principles of making roads.
And those plans which you have adopted, have been entirely conformable to the evidence which he has given before this Committee?—Entirely conformable to those principles which my father has stated in his evidence before this Committee.
Can you give the Committee any information with regard to the revenues of the different roads under your management?—The gross revenue of the trusts I have mentioned, of which I am general surveyor, is about 19,550l. per annum.
Please to state to the Committee, the state of repair in which these roads were when they first came under your management?—The roads in general were in a very loose, rough, and heavy state, much overloaded with materials, the watercourses much stopped up, and the roads in general in a very bad state.
What improvements have taken place upon them since your undertaking the care of them?—The Epsom and Ewell roads were put into a perfect state of repair during the last spring and summer; the Reading road has also been put into a perfect state of repair during the last summer; and the Cheshunt turnpike roads have been put into a good state of repair, notwithstanding that the improvements commenced in October, and have been carried on through the whole winter: the improvement is proceeding rapidly in the other districts; but the three roads I have mentioned, are the only trusts that are brought into a perfect state of repair. I venture to speak freely and with great confidence, of the good state of repair of these three trusts; for the reason, that no credit whatever is attached to me, except what may be considered due by the careful attention and zealous execution of my father’s commands. The merits of the improvements are wholly his own.
Can you state to the Committee the expense with which these improvements have been accompanied?—The expense upon the Epsom roads amounted to 1,929l. 8s. 1d. in the year 1818; that is the only trust upon which I am enabled to state the twelvemonth’s expenditure.
In what proportion has the expenditure been divided between the labour of men, women, and children, and the price of cartage and of materials?—I have paid for labour upon the Epsom roads, 1,146l. 1s. 2d.; for materials, 98l. 10s.; for cartage, 227l. 16s.; for tradesmen’s bills, 342l. 0s. 11d.; for land to widen the roads, 115l.; which makes up the expenditure 1,929l. 8s. 1d. I beg here to state, that I did not avail myself of any statute duty upon the Epsom and Ewell roads.
Can you state to the Committee the expenditure upon these roads, in the years preceding your having the charge of them?—I can; in the years 1815, 1816, and, 1817, which are the three preceding years to my having the charge of these roads. In the year 1815, there was paid for labour, 379l. 14s.; for cartage, 1,019l. 14s.; for gravel, 486l. 15s. 5d.; for tradesmen’s bills, 178l. 6s. 3d.; making a total of 2,064l. 9s. 5d. In the year 1816, there was paid for labour 340l. 16s.; for cartage, 1,070l. 7s. 6d.; for gravel, 563l. 1s. 10d.; for tradesmen’s bills, 382l. 4s. 5d. making a total of 2,375l. 19s. 9d. In the year 1817, there was paid for labour, 339l. 16s.; for cartage, 1,103l. 16s. 3d.; for gravel, 551l.; for tradesmen’s bills, 681l. 6s. 1d.; making a total of 2,675l. 18s. 4d.; independent of the statute duty upon the several parishes, which were called forth by the former surveyor.
Do you know the value of that statute duty?—Not having had occasion to call it forth, I am unable precisely to answer the question; but the parishes are wealthy, and the statute labour must form a very considerable amount.
I presume the comparative smallness of the expense which you incurred for materials must have arisen from making use of the old materials upon the road, by lifting them according to the plan which your father has described?—That was the case.
In what state did you find the executive department of these roads when you took charge of them?—I found at Epsom a person as surveyor, who had been an underwriter at Lloyd’s Coffee-house, at a salary, as I am informed, of sixty pounds per annum, and who was permitted to keep the carts and horses, and do the cartage for the trust. At Reading, I found an elderly gentleman as the surveyor, who was also one of the commissioners, at a salary of twenty or thirty pounds per annum. I found at Cheshunt three surveyors, the trust being divided into three districts. One of the surveyors was an infirm old man, another a carpenter, and another a coal-merchant. I found on the Wades-mill trust three surveyors also, and the trust divided into three districts; one of these surveyors was a very old man, another a publican at Buckland, and the other a baker at Backway, with a salary of fourteen shillings a week each. I found on the Royston road a publican as surveyor there; and I found at Huntingdon a bedridden old man who had not been out of the house for several months, and who had been allowed by the commissioners to apply to a carpenter in the town for assistance, and to whom the commissioners allowed twenty pounds per annum; this person, who accompanied me in the survey of the roads, stated, that he could give but little attention to the management of the road, the salary being so small; and the state of those roads bore evidence to the truth of his assertion.
Without entering into individual cases, do you consider that it was possible, from the nature of the circumstances and engagements of these parties, that they could give that attention to the roads which their improvement required?—I do not consider it was at all likely that they would.
What arrangements did you make in the executive department of these roads after you took the charge of them?—With the permission of the trustees, I appointed upon each trust an active sub-surveyor, whom I required to keep a horse, and to have no other occupation whatever.
Can you state to the Committee the expense of employing such sub-surveyors?—The salary of the sub-surveyors in general is one hundred guineas a year; and where the revenues of the trust have been small, as in the case of the Royston roads and the Huntingdon roads, I have made one surveyor do the duty of both the trusts, in order that that expense might be divided.
What emoluments have you yourself derived from your employment upon these trusts?—I am unable to state the precise amount to the Committee; for the reason that I have in every instance requested of the trustees that that consideration might be deferred for at least a twelvemonth after I was honoured with the charge of the roads; Epsom is therefore the only road upon which that period has elapsed; and with the permission of the Committee, I will read the resolution entered upon the ledger of the Epsom roads upon that subject.