Trial of Pedro de Zulueta, jun., on a Charge of Slave Trading, under 5 Geo. IV, cap. 113, on Friday the 27th, Saturday the 28th, and Monday the 30th of October, 1843, at the Central Criminal Court, Old Bailey, London / A Full Report from the Short-hand Notes of W. B. Gurney, Esq.

Viscount Sandon in the chair.

Captain the Honourable Joseph Denman, R. N. called in; and further examined.

10646. Chairman.] What evidence had you of those parties being British subjects whom you brought back to Sierra Leone?—I found them in the barracoons mixed with other slaves for exportation; I took them to Sierra Leone; they were examined, both speaking English, by the Governor of Sierra Leone in my presence; the opinion of the Governor of Sierra Leone was, that it was most undoubtedly the fact that they were British subjects; one was a liberated African and the other a Creole, born in Sierra Leone.

10647. Mr. Forster.] Do you consider them, under those circumstances, as fairly and properly entitled to the appellation of British subjects?—As completely as any person in this room.

10648. Was the circumstance of your finding them at the Gallinas the ground upon which you took your proceedings there and burnt the place?—It was the principal ground of those proceedings; the grounds have been already stated in my former evidence; I think that was the most important ground.

EVIDENCE OF PEDRO DE ZULUETA, JUN., ESQ.
TAKEN BEFORE
THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON WEST COAST OF AFRICA.

Veneris, 22º die Junii, 1842.

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Viscount Sandon, in the chair.

Pedro de Zulueta, Jun. Esq. called in; and examined.

10370. Chairman.] You have seen some statements that have been made to this Committee upon the subject of a transaction in which your house was engaged; have you any observations to offer upon it?—I received from the Clerk of the Committee a letter accompanying a copy of certain evidences, which are Mr. Macaulay’s evidence of the 10th of June, the 14th of June, and the 15th of June; and Captain Hill’s evidence of the 29th of June, the 4th of July, and the 6th of July. I would beg, first of all, to refer to the letter which I had the honour to address to the Chairman. My reason for wishing to be examined before this Committee was, that the statements contained in the evidence which I have mentioned are all of them more or less incorrect, some of them totally so. I will begin by stating what has been the nature of our, I will not say trade, for we have not had a trade ourselves, but of our connexion with the shipment of goods to the coast of Africa. We have been established as merchants for upwards of 70 years in Spain, for nearly 20 years in this country, and we have had connexions to a large extent in Spain, and in the Havannah, and in South America, and several other places; among them we have had connexions or commercial intercourse with the house of Pedro Martinez & Co. of the Havannah, and with Blanco & Cavallo of Havannah. With them we have carried on a regular business in consignments of sugars and of cochineal, which they have made to us; and in specie received by the packets from Mexico and other places. We have several times acted for them here in this country, buying raw cotton for instance at Liverpool, and re-selling it very largely; that has been principally with Pedro Martinez & Co.

10371. They are general merchants?—They are general merchants, and their transactions with us have been of that nature. As general merchants we have bought stock here for them rather largely; and in the course of those transactions we have received orders from Don Pedro Martinez & Co. of the Havannah, and from Don Pedro Martinez of Cadiz, to ship goods for the coast of Africa; never from Pedro Blanco, and never from Blanco & Cavallo.

10372. Have you received orders from Pedro Martinez for shipments for the coast of Africa?—Yes; in the course of business we have received orders to ship goods upon the funds in our hands belonging to them; and we have shipped the goods described in the letter, and sent the bills of lading to Pedro Martinez; but beyond that we have never had any returns from the coast of Africa, nor any control of any kind from the moment the cargoes left the ports of this country.

10373. You have had no interest in the result of the venture?—No, nor any notice, nor any acquaintance, nor any correspondence with any one upon the coast; we have never had any kind of knowledge, either subsequently or previously, of the shipments, except the mere fact of buying the goods and shipping them.

10374. Your whole interest was a commission upon the transaction—Entirely. The extent of those transactions has been so limited in the course of nearly 20 years that we have been in this country, that the amount of the invoices that we have sent out has been something like 20,000l. or 22,000l. in the course of all that time. That is one part of the operations we have performed. The other operations are the acceptance of bills drawn by people on the coast; among them Pedro Blanco when he was there, upon ourselves, on account of Blanco & Cavallo, of Havannah, upon funds which Blanco & Cavallo had in our hands: for instance, the people at the Havannah, or in Spain, open a credit with us, and we accept the bills of the parties on that credit with us, just the same as we should do with any other correspondent in any other part.

10375. You would have funds in your hands, arising from some commercial transactions between you and the Havannah merchant or the Cadiz merchant; and Pedro Blanco, upon the coast of Africa, would draw upon the credit of those funds, being authorised by the Cadiz or the Havannah merchant?—Yes; and if Pedro Blanco had drawn 5s. beyond that, we should have protested, and in some instances we have protested. With regard to the vessel alluded to in this Report, the Augusta, our part in that concern has been simply that which appears from one of the letters: that is to say, Pedro Martinez, of Cadiz, had made choice of Jennings to buy the vessel, and lent him money to buy the vessel; because Pedro Martinez wanted him to have a vessel in the trade, for the purpose of taking his goods to their destination. I have now described the three kinds of operations in which we have been concerned, and our knowledge of all of them terminated with the execution of the orders of our correspondents. We had nothing more to do than to follow the orders of the purchaser in shipping the goods. With regard to the purchase of the vessel by Jennings; Jennings is a man who has been employed some time by Martinez; he has served Martinez as a chartered captain, and Martinez having been satisfied with his services, agreed to lend him that money on the security of the vessel, provided it did not exceed a certain amount; which was all the interference we had with it, just to see that a certain amount was not exceeded, 500l. or whatever it was.

10376. Then you were to furnish Captain Jennings with money for the purchase within a limited amount, say 500l., credit being given to him upon you by Pedro Martinez, of Cadiz?—That is just the point.

10377. Captain Fitzroy.] The Augusta being purchased by money advanced by your house for Martinez & Company of Cadiz; and she then became the property of Pedro Martinez?—No, she became the property of Jennings; the money was lent to Jennings, and he bound himself by giving security on the vessel to answer for the amount. It is a mercantile operation which is not unusual.

10378. Mr. Forster.] You advanced the money to Captain Jennings for the purchase of the vessel, Jennings transferring the vessel to you as a security for the amount so advanced?—That is just the description of operation, which is a very general one in business.

10379. Chairman.] What is the object of such an operation?—I know very little or almost next to nothing of the operations in those parts of the world; but the object of such an operation I apprehend to be this: a vessel chartered with a stranger must be governed by the different clauses of the charter-party; the charterer must be limited to time and to places; and by Martinez having the vessel owned by a man with whom he could have a better understanding than with others, he might always send more advantageously articles from the Havannah to the Gallinas, and from here to the Gallinas. When I say articles, I mean legal articles.

10379*. What advantage would there be in Mr. Jennings taking the articles rather as the owner than as captain under Martinez; was not he commander of the vessel as well as owner of the vessel?—Yes.

10380. He is made the owner, instead of being captain?—He is the owner as well as the captain of the vessel; he stands indebted to Martinez, and gives a bottomry bond for the vessel.

10380*. Does Mr. Jennings upon this transaction make all the freight to his own profit?—Certainly, whatever he does is to his own profit.

10381. He is not, then, an agent for Martinez?—No, he is a person to whom Martinez lends the money to buy the vessel; whatever profit he derives is his own. Martinez has this advantage, which to a mercantile man is very perceptible, that he has got a charter with a man who stands in that relation towards him which gives him a sort of control over the vessel. If I as a stranger charter a vessel for Martinez, and he has spent one, two, or five days more in landing goods than the charter-party allows, I should make a claim for it; I should say, “You must keep to the charter.” Now, when Jennings is indebted to him for the favour of a loan for the vessel, he is not upon a similar footing.

10382. So that he gets the vessel more under his own control?—Yes; in saying this I am putting an hypothetical case, but I do not know the mind of Martinez himself.

10383. Mr. Forster.] You acted in this transaction merely as agent in the usual manner, as you would have acted for any house in any part of the world?—Exactly; if Martinez had told me, “You have got 500l. in your hands, pay that to Captain Jennings,” I should have known nothing more of the transaction; I should have paid the money. But Martinez did not wish to go beyond a certain amount; and he says, “You exercise control, do not allow the man to pay more than 500l. for the vessel.”

10384. But beyond the purchase of the vessel and the shipment of the goods, the other arrangements and the subsequent transactions were entirely between Jennings and Martinez & Co.?—Most assuredly; except with the order of Martinez, I do not know how we could have done any thing with him in any way.

10385. Captain Fitzroy.] Though the process of hypothecating a vessel may be usual between British merchants, is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish slave trade with the British flag, by means of such an arrangement as that described to have taken place in the case of the Augusta?—In order to answer that question, it seems to me that it is fair that I should ask where is the transaction of covering, and where is the slave trade transaction? I know positively of my own knowledge, that there is no such thing at all connected with the Augusta. If I had an opportunity, I could make my affidavit of that.

10386. Sir T. D. Acland.] Do you mean that you know that the Augusta was not engaged in any slaving transactions during the voyage upon which she left Liverpool?—Most assuredly not; in fact my testimony is hardly required of that, because every thing proves that. When she was detained, it was never said that she was upon a slaving operation at all. Before she left this port, after she was bought, she was completely rendered useless for that purpose.

10387. Chairman.] The charge is, that she was engaged in carrying goods to a person engaged in the slave trade; not that she was engaged in the slave trade herself?—I most certainly say that I do not know whether the person is so engaged or not.

10388. Captain Fitzroy.] Is it usual to cover a transaction of Spanish trade with the English flag?—I am not aware that a Spanish merchant is prohibited chartering an English vessel.

10389. But is it lawful to employ the British flag to cover a vessel that is not owned by a British subject?—I say that that vessel is owned by a British subject.

10390. Sir T. D. Acland.] By whom?—By Captain Jennings.

10391. Was not the money with which she was purchased, the money of Pedro Martinez?—It seems to me that English captains and English subjects are not prohibited from borrowing money from Spaniards; she was bought with money lent by Pedro Martinez to Captain Jennings for the purpose.

10392. Do you mean that the money was a loan to Captain Jennings, at the time he paid it for the vessel?—It was a loan to Captain Jennings.

10393. Do you mean that the ship was then Captain Jennings’s property?—It was.

10394. Was it in his power to sell that ship at any port he pleased?—There was a mortgage upon the vessel.

10395. Mr. W. Patten.] You have stated that yours is an agency trade?—It is so; and in the multitude of business, any one can understand that 20,000l. in 15 or 20 years, can only be a mere trifle in the business of any merchant, without laying claim to a large business; and in following that business, we have executed shipping orders.

10396. To what part of the coast of Africa has that business been chiefly conducted?—I believe, almost exclusively to the Gallinas.

10397. Have the goods that Mr. Martinez has ordered to be sent to the Gallinas, been all sent to the same individual?—No, to different individuals; sometimes to Pedro Blanco, who was for a certain time an agent of Pedro Martinez on the coast, and sometimes we have sent a bill of lading drawn in this way to order; we have sent it to Pedro Martinez as a voucher against his account.

10398. Do you know the nature of the trade of Pedro Martinez at the Gallinas?—I know from general report that Don Pedro Martinez himself is supposed to deal in slaves, and I believe it is so.

10399. Is he known at the Havannah as a dealer in slaves?—I do not know, but I believe so; I do not know why it should not be known at the Havannah, if it is known in other parts.

10400. Chairman.] Is a ship which is hypothecated, liable to be foreclosed at any moment, at the discretion of the mortgagee?—It depends altogether upon the terms of the mortgage; if the mortgagee says, “You must give me the money when I ask for it,” of course he must sell the vessel if he has not got any thing else; he would always have to deduct whatever freight had been earned. When the security may be called upon to be effective, depends upon the nature of the transaction between the parties.

10401. Mr. Forster.] Your house had nothing to do with any letters that might be put on board the Augusta after she sailed from this country?—Nothing whatever.

10402. The Augusta was seized on the coast of Africa, on the charge of slave trading?—I believe that was the case.

10403. Did you not appeal against that condemnation?—Yes, there is an appeal by the owner.

10404. Before the Privy Council?—Yes.

10405. That appeal is not yet decided?—I believe not.

10406. Sir T. D. Acland.] You stated that your transactions with Africa for Martinez have amounted to about 20,000l. in 15 or 20 years. What has been the amount of your whole transactions with Blanco & Martinez of the Havannah during that period?—Perhaps 100,000l. or a larger sum. For instance, we have received more than 40 or 50 cargoes of sugar from the Havannah, consigned to us, and cigars; and we have received bills of lading of specie shipped at Mexico to be sold here, and bar gold, and things of that sort.

10407. Mr. Wood.] Have you reason to suppose that the whole of that large commerce is subservient to the carrying on of the slave trade by the house of Blanco & Martinez at the Havannah?—I do not know; I know that they have large transactions in general business. I know that a short time ago I got 40,000l. or 50,000l. of Spanish bonds in the market for Martinez. I know that he is a large speculator in Spanish bonds and in securities of state.

10408. Is that speculating in Spanish bonds on account of the house at Cadiz, or the house at Havannah?—Speaking technically, I should say it was on account of the Cadiz house.

10409. The question related to the commerce of the Havannah house?—Pedro Martinez is a Havannah merchant. But with regard to Havannah merchants, we have received large consignments of sugar, cochineal, and sometimes Mexican goods, brought to Havannah and shipped to us here.

10410. In what course of business have the proceeds of those consignments been disposed of; have they gone in sending supplies to the coast of Africa?—Out of that large amount of money 22,000l. is the amount of all the goods that we have sent to the coast of Africa in 20 years.

10411. Of all descriptions?—Of all sorts and kinds; I have gone through the invoice-book and found them out.

10412. Have the proceeds generally been disposed of by drafts from the parties themselves to your house?—By the parties at Havannah, when the exchange turns to their advantage.

10413. Have you reason to suppose that a large portion of the trade that they carry on at the Havannah is the slave trade?—I had no reason to know any thing of the kind; I have known more of their transactions with the slave trade since these things have been mooted than I ever knew before; I have had more knowledge of these things lately than I ever had in my life before; and when I say “I,” I beg to state that I ought to state “we,” for all my partners are in the same situation.

10414. Have you been employed by the house at the Havannah to ship manufactured goods from this country to Havannah, suitable for the African trade?—We have sometimes shipped goods to the Havannah of the same kind as those that were in the “Augusta;” cotton goods and other things of that sort.

10415. Has that been recently?—In the course of our operations.

10416. How many years ago?—In the course of these 15 or 20 years that we have been engaged in business with them; all that I could see in a moment by my books.

10417. Have you sent any goods of that description to the Havannah recently?—Not very recently; I think not for some years.

10418. Have you sent any goods of that description since you first began to send goods out direct to the coast of Africa?—They have been mixed; I cannot draw a distinction between the two destinations; some have gone to the Havannah, some to the Gallinas.

10419. Have those supplies of English manufactured goods, which heretofore went to the Havannah, to be used there for promoting the slave trade, been more recently sent direct from this country to the coast of Africa?—No, I do not think that is the case; I should think the contrary is more likely to be the case, but I think we have shipped in some months, or in some years, partly to the Havannah, and partly to the Gallinas.

10420. If the coast of Africa be their ultimate destination, will not they go out at a cheaper cost to the owner if they go direct from this country, than if they go circuitously first to Havannah, and then to the coast of Africa?—I think that is very doubtful indeed, because the freights to Havannah are so miserably low that I believe they can be taken for almost nothing; in Liverpool, English vessels loading for Havannah, load for any thing you will choose to give them.

10421. Has the trade of Pedro Martinez increased or diminished the last few years in that particular kind of goods?—I think it is neither more nor less: I think it is just about the same. I believe for the last three or four years it has been less altogether to both places, but it has diminished equally; I cannot say when it is increased in the one part or diminished in the other.

10422. How long have you conducted the trade upon the coast of Africa?—As I said before, I do not think we have conducted any trade on the coast of Africa, either legal or illegal.

10423. How long have you acted as agents for Martinez, on the coast of Africa?—As long as we have had any connexions with Martinez; it is part and parcel of other operations; that is to say, in the multitude of other operations that have intervened we have shipped goods as I have said.

10424. Did that part of your operations for him spring up after your first connexion with Martinez had commenced?—No, it is part of a mass of business all mixed up together.

10425. Mr. Forster.] In the extensive transactions of your house, these shipments, whether to Havannah or the coast of Africa, form a very trifling proportion?—I can only leave the Committee to judge for themselves as to that, after what I have stated.

10426. Mr. Wood.] What is the firm of the house at Havannah?—Pedro Martinez & Co.; the Cadiz house is Pedro Martinez only, without the company. Blanco & Carvalho was the firm some time ago: it is now Blanco & Co.

10427. Are the answers which you have given in relation to one of these houses equally applicable to both of them?—There is some difference between them: but in regard to the general business of both of them, what applies to the one applies to the other. I have the same general business with both, and the smallest part of the business has been the shipment of goods, whether to Havannah or to the coast of Africa. The shipments apply to Martinez only.

10428. Have you shipped English manufactured goods direct to the coast of Africa, on behalf of both those houses?—Such goods as were in the Augusta I have shipped for one party only. With regard to the house of Blanco & Carvalho, and the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., with both of them I have carried on a general large business. But to Blanco & Carvalho I never shipped a single piece of goods of any kind, except some sugar mills to the Havannah; and with regard to the house of Pedro Martinez, we have shipped such goods as those by the Augusta.

10429. From your general knowledge of the trade of the house of Pedro Martinez & Co., is it your opinion that the goods which you so shipped to the coast of Africa were destined to be employed in the slave trade?—I do not know; they may be, for any thing that I know.

10430. Has it come within your knowledge that the house of Martinez & Co. are exporters from Africa of the native produce of Africa?—No, because I never tried to get any knowledge of their transactions there of any sort.

10431. Have you ever received consignments from them, or on their behalf, of palm-oil, gold dust, or ivory, from the coast of Africa?—Never; we never have received any thing from the coast of Africa whatever. With regard to all these transactions, it will perhaps appear strange to the Committee that I should not know more of the coast of Africa, having shipped things there; but if we had shipped to the amount of 100,000l. to the coast of Africa, or carried on any considerable trade there, we should certainly have known more about the coast of Africa; but in transactions of a very large amount, an invoice occasionally of about 2,000l. or 3,000l. of goods was a thing that we sent as a matter of course, and did not trouble our heads about, especially as the remuneration we got was a mere trifle, not of itself worth pursuing, if it had not been for the general business we had.

10432. Chairman.] Is there any other part of the evidence which has been given that you wish to observe upon?—It is asked here, in Question 5086, “Who was he?” the answer is, “The name is mentioned in the Parliamentary Papers as being connected with the purchase of a slave vessel, Mr. Kidd; and it is mentioned in connexion with that of Mr. Zulueta of London.” Now, as to Mr. Kidd, the very first thing I ever knew or ever heard of his name was to see it here. I never heard of his name at all. I never had a letter from him or through him, or knew any thing of the man whatever. That is with regard to myself. With regard to my partners, I can say the same; I have been making inquiries about it. My father knew there was such a man upon the coast, but I did not know even that, though I have managed all this business. Our house never had a letter from the man, or knew any thing about him.

10433. You have no connexion with Mr. Kidd in any way?—No, nor any knowledge of him. Then in the next answer it is said “Zulueta the gentleman in London to whom the vessel was sent, and who sold her again to her former Spanish owner, is a name well known on the coast in connexion with the slave trade.” Now what is known on the coast I really cannot pretend to say; but I believe that not many persons can say that which I can say, that neither myself, nor my father, nor my grandfather, nor any body in our firm, has ever had any kind of interest of any sort, or derived any emolument or connexion from the slave trade. My father had at one time an interest in a bankrupt’s estate at the Havannah, upon which he was a creditor. There were some slaves on the estate, and they formed part of the property assignable to the creditors, and my father got the slaves assigned to him; because the other gentlemen and the creditors were not of the same opinion, he got them assigned to him, and made them free; and that is all the connexion we have ever had with any slaves in the world. I do not know how far that may be considered irrelevant to the point, but I state it because we are here mentioned three or four times as connected with slave dealers, as a name well known in connexion with the slave trade. That sort of statement is rather a difficult thing to deal with.

10434. If it is meant to insinuate by these observations that you ever had any other connexion with the slave trade, than being the shipping agent of goods which were sent to a man who was a dealer in slaves, you entirely deny it?—I assure the Committee, that although I have a general notion as to what interest Blanco and Martinez have in slaves, yet, if I was put upon my oath to make any particular statement, I really could not, because I do not know it. Of course I believe it; but my personal knowledge amounts only to that which the knowledge of what we read in a newspaper amounts to.

10435. There was nothing upon the face of the transactions which you had with those parties which spoke of a connexion with traffic in slaves?—Nothing whatever. It is well known, that, fifty years ago, it was in the ordinary course of business in Cadiz to insure operations in slave trading. My house at that time were underwriters, and it was notorious that a policy of that kind would never enter the doors of our house; and nobody would come to offer such a thing to us upon any terms. It is notorious, both here and in Spain, that we set our faces distinctly against having any interest of any kind in the slave trade.

10436. It is further stated, “It appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade.” Have you any observation to make upon that?—It is all untrue, the whole of it; I never received a vessel from those gentlemen; there has been nothing of the kind.

10437. Have you any thing further to state upon the subject?—There are several things I have marked; for instance, such as this, “You are not bound to suppose that a man will make a bad use of that which he purchases.” If I wished to put my statement upon that footing, I should have done with it in a moment, for I knew nothing of the use they were put to. I bought goods, but as to what use was made of them I knew nothing whatever. But that is not the position which I wish to assume. It is said here that we sent goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco. To that I say, that we never sent either goods or vessels to Pedro Blanco. In answer to Question 5474 it is said by Mr. Macaulay, “I stated ‘that it appears that it is a regular thing sending vessels to him, that is to Mr. Zulueta; if they come to England to him he sends them to Cadiz, and they get out again to the Havannah and come again into the trade.’ My answer was intended to describe only the course of that particular transaction and not to apply to any other case.” I never received a single vessel from the coast of Africa at any time, nor any body for us.

10438. Mr. Forster.] Then that statement is entirely untrue?—Totally, from beginning to end; we never did so, and nobody for us; and nobody to our knowledge, or with our connivance; I deny it in the most distinct manner. In answer to Question 5487, Mr. Macaulay is asked, “Have you any thing further to say with regard to the connexion of Zulueta with the slave trade?” The answer is, “I would refer to his connexion with the Gollupchik, which was lately captured. In that case it appeared that the vessel went out direct to the Gallinas from London.” That is the same vessel as the Augusta, which I have already explained; it formerly bore the name of Gollupchik.

10439. Chairman.] Have you been concerned in the purchase of vessels frequently for Pedro Martinez or Pedro Blanco?—We have sometimes bought such vessels here as we could resell at the Havannah, such as the Arrogante, which we have bought.

10440. Upon orders?—Partly on orders, and sometimes on our own account on speculation.

10441. Mr. Wood.] For what particular trade were they calculated when they reached the Havannah?—I think for the same trade which they were calculated for when they were sold here.

10442. For the conveyance of merchandise?—As well as any thing else. They were sold here publicly.

10443. Mr. Forster.] If it was legal for them to be sold here, you considered that it was legal for you to buy them?—I never had any doubt of the legality of buying here, or of selling them again afterwards.

10444. Mr. Wood.] But the questions appertaining to the carrying on of the slave trade do not confine themselves within strictly legal grounds, but they have other more important considerations attaching to them?—As to that point, there may be a difference of opinion; I would be very sorry indeed, for the sake of catching the approval of other persons, to make a disclaimer of any particular set of opinions whatever; but I believe the only point with which the Committee have to do, is the legal point. As to the moral point, it seems to me, that I am to judge of that; upon that point, I think I have stated quite enough, having stated distinctly that I never had any connexion, nor derived any profit from the slave trade whatever.

10445. Sir T. D. Acland.] You have stated in your letter, that your principle is, that of “not wishing to derive profit or advantage from the sufferings of humanity, whether avoidable or unavoidable,” and you have acted upon that principle?—That is the principle upon which we have acted.

10446. And you do not find that acting upon that principle has interfered with the fair success of your commerce?—I do not think it would; if it would, we should not care much about that, because we are in a position which is well known to many persons here, as well as to persons abroad. In 5495, Mr. Macaulay is asked, “What evidence have we that Zulueta knew that in dealing with Pedro Blanco, the goods he sold would be used for the barter of slaves.” I have said, that I had nothing to do with him; I never sold any goods to Pedro Blanco. The answer here is, “Any body engaged in the Spanish trade would be aware that Pedro Blanco was the largest slave trader in the world.” It may be so, that he is the largest in the world; but I can only say that the largest is very little, if that is the case, for I have spoken of 22,000l. as being the amount of the bills we have paid for him, which I have here (producing the same), to the order of several houses established in Sierra Leone, for goods, I suppose bought for him, amounting to about 22,100l. I only mention this with reference to the notoriety of his being such a large slave dealer, that it was impossible to shut your eyes to it. Then with respect to what is said in answer 5502, I only wish to remark upon this, that what I have answered already I believe applies to this. It is said, “I think that a man who viewed the slave trade in a proper light, would have considered it improper to be so engaged.” I have observed already upon that, that the propriety or impropriety of our conduct is a different thing from the question whether we have been legally or illegally engaged, although the question with which I am now concerned is a general disclaimer of any participation in the slave trade.

10447. You agree with Mr. Macaulay’s opinion, “That a man who viewed the slave trade in a proper light, would have considered it improper to be so engaged”?—I do not know whether my opinions would agree with Mr. Macaulay’s upon this subject, but I think that a man who in any way tried to elude the laws of his country, would be acting against his conscience in the highest degree; that is my impression of it, and that is what I mean to say; and with regard to the slave trade, I mean to carry out that which I have stated in my letter, that I look upon it as an evil, and I would wish to add nothing to that evil in any way, but to diminish what I could of it. As to the moral criminality of all the parties, I suppose that depends upon other considerations. Then in the Evidence of Captain Hill, in answer to question 7161, it is stated here, “the Custom-house officers in Liverpool may be totally ignorant of the trade carried on at the Gallinas, and also totally ignorant of the trade carried on by Pedro Martinez & Co. at the Havannah.” All our shipments have been made through the Custom-house, giving the destinations of the vessels and every thing, and what we did was illegal; we should consider ourselves not justly treated altogether, in being allowed to do that which we say we are going to do, and then after it is done being told it is illegal, although before it is done we have the very sanction of the parties to do it, because we have no concern in it beyond the shipment, and the shipment is publicly made. In answer to Question 7165, it is said, “I have never met a vessel belonging to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. on the coast of Africa.” Of course, we never had one, and therefore he never could meet with one. Then in answer to Question 7958*, Mr. Hill states that he found a letter, dated London, 20th of August 1840, stating, “We cannot exceed 500l. for the vessel in question, such as described in your letter; if you cannot therefore succeed at those limits, we must give up the purchase.” But he says, “there is a note to the letter, which says, ‘According to our Liverpool mode, note, you will go on shore to the Salthouse Dock.’” Now I have been looking at our letter-book, and I am quite willing to suppose that the person who has stated this might not wish, of course, to state any thing that was incorrect; but this is altogether unintelligible to me. The Salthouse Dock is well known to every person acquainted with Liverpool; it is one of the docks in which vessels go and unload, and that is all. Our house might say that our custom was to send our vessels there; we generally do; but I do not understand this at all.

10448. Chairman. You do not understand what bearing it has upon the question?—I think the words must be badly copied; there is no such thing in our letter-book as it appears here; it is quite unintelligible to me.

10449. Sir T. D. Acland.] Is the other part of the letter correct, which is stated as bearing date the 26th of September 1840?—Yes.

10450. Have you referred to your own copy of the letter?—Yes, and it is not in our copy; but I can conceive our saying to the captain of the vessel, go into the Salthouse Dock, because we generally send our vessels there.

10451. Had you ever employed Jennings before?—Jennings had had charge of vessels before, chartered by Martinez, and hence the connexion between Martinez and Jennings. There are some captains in all trades, that make a great deal of difficulty about every thing, and others that do not; of course, merchants like to deal with those that do not, more than those that do.

10452. Chairman.] It would appear from Question 5087, that your name is supposed to have been mentioned in a Parliamentary Paper, as connected with a slave trade transaction. Will you refer to page 38, in Class B. Paper of 1839 and 1840, which is the place referred to in the answer, and see if there is any trace of your name in that transaction?—I do not find my own name there; I only find an allusion at the bottom to the name of Pedro Martinez, but in a manner in no way connected with me, and stating a circumstance which I never knew. In Question 7965*, it is stated, “The Augusta had touched at Cadiz on her way out from England?” The answer is, “Yes, and landed part of her cargo at Cadiz, although it was consigned to be delivered at Gallinas.” Now Captain Hill, who has given this answer, must have known why she touched at Cadiz, and why she discharged part of her cargo, for it must be in the log-book of the vessel. It was because she was nearly wrecked in her passage; she put into Cadiz in distress, and there she landed a part of her cargo, which was tobacco which was rotten, and sold for the benefit of the underwriters. Now that has not been stated here, but I think Captain Hill must have known it, because it is in the log-book of the vessel which he took.

10453. Chairman.] And the log-book he must have read?—I should think so; because if he has not done that he has done nothing. All I mean to say is that it is, an ex parte statement.

10454. Sir T. D. Acland.] It was not intended when she left England, that she should put into Cadiz?—Most certainly not; all the facts of the case show that she went there because she was obliged. I have not seen the log-book, but it must be there; because in the log-book the captain is bound to enter those things, and whoever captured the vessel must have seen the log-book of course. In answer to Question 7967*, it is said, “Messrs. Zulueta must be aware that it is contrary to law to act as agents or otherwise for the shipment of goods that are to be employed in the slave trade; they were bound to do nothing illegal; they are merchants residing in England, and they must conform themselves to the laws of England, and they cannot by the laws of England plead ignorance of those laws.” Now I and my partners are British subjects, and therefore we are bound by the law, and we must obey the law; and I say that to endeavour to elude the law is criminal in my estimation of things. In the answer to Question 7970*, it is stated, “I have endeavoured to be particular in making it appear that this vessel was chartered to a place where there were no constituted authorities.” I think that in the Gallinas there are constituted authorities. It is the first time that I ever heard that it is illegal for any merchant to ship goods for any places without ascertaining beforehand whether there are constituted authorities there. I believe that if they like to send goods to any place, they may do it; and as to the fact of there being constituted authorities in the place or not, I do not see what that has to do with the question; besides, there have been such things as treaties made with persons at the Gallinas, so that there must be some constituted authorities there. But I do not know why I should be called upon to know whether there are constituted authorities at the port or not. Then it is stated, in answer to Question 7971*, “As far as I am able to give my own opinion, I believe that Messrs. Zulueta were perfectly criminal, at least they had a knowledge of what they were doing. I think I am borne out in that by the secrecy they have endeavoured to pursue in putting in a false owner.” I have answered all that before. I state again, that all the secrecy and mystery of the thing lies in supposing other things different from what appear. Then it is said, “In fact there can be no want of evidence to show that Messrs. Zulueta had for a length of time been agents to slave dealers.” Mr. Blanco and Mr. Martinez may have been engaged, as I have stated, in slave operations; and I have stated that we conducted their general business here.

10455. Mr. Forster.] Is not Pedro Blanco a partner in a commercial house at the Havannah who are general merchants?—Yes, I have stated that before.

10456. Captain Fitzroy.] Have you ever discounted any bill drawn by Pedro Blanco on Pedro Martinez &. Co. for goods delivered for them on the African coast at the Gallinas?—I have accepted bills drawn by Pedro Blanco and others from the Gallinas upon our house, and paid them to the order of several houses in Sierra Leone and houses in London. I have paid them in money that I had in my hands resulting from the general transactions of business, which I have explained. But discounting would be this, if I had paid those acceptances before they were due, and received some consideration for them; that I never did, but I might have done it in the case of these bills.

10457. Were those bills negociated through your hands in payment of goods delivered at the Gallinas?—No; they were drawn generally with the advice attached to them, saying, I have drawn a thousand pounds upon you for account of Blanco and Carvalho, or Blanco &, Co., at the Havannah.

10458. Mr. Wood.] By whose orders were you desired to honour it; was it by the order of Pedro Blanco at the Gallinas?—No; by the house at the Havannah or by the house at Cadiz; sometimes the one and sometimes the other. Blanco had a house some time ago in Malaga, as a general merchant, occupied in shipping the fruits of the country and oil to the United States, &c. &c. In answer to Question 7961*, the following is stated:—“In one of these letters, dated Cadiz, 30th of November 1840, is a paragraph to the following effect: ‘In a letter, dated London, the 21st instant, which I have just received from Messrs. Zulueta & Co., merchants in London, I had the pleasure of receiving a bill drawn by you on them for 250l., which I this day place to their credit, waiting your advice of the same.’” There is here certainly a mistranslation of some kind, because it says that this man receives a bill upon us, and credits it to us, which is of course contradictory in the very terms of it, because if the bill was remitted to this man upon us, he would have debited it to us, and not credited it. But altogether there is some confusion about it; I suppose arising from the mistranslation of the documents, because the fact is this, the bill is one of the bills I have already mentioned, drawn from the Gallinas upon ourselves, to the order of a third party. It is a bill drawn at the Gallinas upon ourselves, on account of the credit, and therefore it could never have been received by the person in Cadiz. It must have been presented to us here, and in fact so it was; the bill is here. I wish to show that that letter is perfectly inaccurate.

10459. Sir T. D. Acland.] Can you give the Committee any information upon this: “The other letters,” nine of them, “were all on slave business: not a word of any innocent trade, but the whole directing how slaves were to be shipped on board various vessels.” How do you account for this vessel carrying letters upon slave business?—I account for it in this way: first of all, it is impossible for us to answer here what letters will be put on board a vessel at Cadiz; but there is very seldom any communication between Cadiz and the Gallinas; whatever letters there were must have gone by such random occasions as arose. As to the fact that whoever wrote those letters is engaged in the slave trade, the letters will speak for themselves.

10460. Chairman.] Those letters were not prepared in the expectation of the arrival of this vessel, because this vessel was not destined to that port, and was only driven there by stress of weather?—Most certainly. I will add one circumstance in proof of that. The vessel was supposed to have been lost, from the circumstance of a boat having been found upon the coast with the name of T. Jennings upon it, and it was supposed that it was a boat belonging to the vessel; it was, in fact, a boat from the vessel, but the vessel had not been lost; therefore the vessel was quite unexpected in Cadiz by every soul. It went there from stress of weather, and nothing more. Then it is said, in answer to Question 7972*, “I think the papers are quite conclusive to the mind of any man that Zulueta was cognizant of what he was doing; but as far as it is an illegal transaction, it is not for me to judge; but the Judge of the Vice-Admiralty Court of Sierra Leone did think it illegal, and condemned the vessel; and moreover, the man who is put forward as captain and owner did not defend the vessel on her trial.” Now, as to the statement of his being a false owner, I have already stated that he was not. But then, again, with regard to the other part of the business, the man did not defend it, because he was prevented from defending it.

10461. How was he prevented from defending it?—He had not money to defend himself. It appears from the protest that the vessel was condemned without allowing Thomas Jennings to say any thing in her defence. I will deliver in the protest, which shows that that was the fact. (The same was delivered in.) As to his not having money, it is said that he might have raised money upon the cargo; but there is no one can entertain any doubt as to the palpable contradiction of such a statement, because to raise money upon a cargo, which was seized, over which he had no control, is to me quite unintelligible.

10462. Mr. Wood.] You have spoken of some bills drawn upon your house by Pedro Blanco, and you were understood to say that they were drawn some of them, in favour of Sierra Leone houses. Can you inform the Committee the names of the houses at Sierra Leone in whose favour they were drawn?—I have no objection to do so, but I feel loath to mention names. I could have mentioned many names; we are not the only correspondents in London of Blanco and Martinez. With regard to those houses at Sierra Leone, I should be sorry to introduce names, because I know the pain I have had from mine being introduced here, but still there is no secret in the thing.

10463. You have given the committee the names of parties drawing the bills, and on whose account they were drawn, and you speak of their being drawn in favour of Sierra Leone houses; have you any objection to furnish the names of the houses in whose favour they were drawn?—I say that I have no objection, except that I should not like to introduce names unnecessarily; but the bills are in my hands, and any gentleman can look at them who chooses; they are at the disposal of any body who likes to look at them.

[The Witness produced the bills.]

Sabbati, 23º die Julii, 1842.

MEMBERS PRESENT.